Catch and Carry

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

My kid is using my laptop at the moment so can't access the PDF. That comes from an NCAA rules interp PDF I downloaded from somewhere. I will get it for you as soon as I can get computer.

2012 Ask Dee

As to the tarp... unless a team locates it in dead ball territory (ie outside the fence or
within a fenced area) essentially a player can do anything EXCEPT put a foot on it...she can use it to her advantage to make a catch by bracing or leaning...just can't put a foot on it. It is not dead ball territory so she can sprawl on the tarp, make a catch and then get up and throw the ball. If the ball becomes lodged in the tarp, then you do have a dead ball (blocked ball). If you have a catch and then the player puts a foot on the tarp, you have a dead ball (catch and carry).

Thanks.
They should add that A/R to 2.25 when they print the 2016-2017 edition of the rule book.

[agr8zebra]

@UmpireErnie This was the 3A state championship game in Utah, I just saw it on the newsbut quickly said C&C. This was a 3-man crew and I can see the 3B U counter rotated at 2nd. I see he got a slow move to chase the fly ball. Granted the angle isn't great, but the physics of momentum tells she had to use something to return to the field of play so quickly. A collaspible I know wouldn't be ridgid enough. Just game awareness.

I had something similar in my 4A game on Thursday.

[MD Longhorn]

Generally, when you have a temporary or collapsable fence, the player is not in dead ball territory unless they are completely beyond that fence. The rule is not the same as the tarp rule at all.

In the OP, the player has not left live ball territory, even though he/she touches DBT.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by agr8zebra

No body out, Runner on 1st base. Batter hits to deep center field. At the collapsible fence the defense catches the near home run ball both feet clearly in fair territory but her momentum carries her through the fence, with her torso laying across the fence from chest to her knees, using her free hand and her glove hand(with the ball) she pushes herself up in dead-ball territory and quickly returns the ball to the infield.

Is this a catch and carry as in NFHS

Rule 8.4.3i?

Here is a link to a video on facebook it may work may not

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...r&notif_t=like

defense catches the near home run ball both feet clearly in fair territory

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Generally, when you have a temporary or collapsable fence, the player is not in dead ball territory unless they are completely beyond that fence.

Depends on the rule code. For ASA, a player can stand on a collapsed fence and make a legal catch:

Originally Posted by ASA 2009 case book

PLAY 1-12
F8 collides with a portable fence, knocking the fence to the ground and makes a catch while standing on the collapsed fence.
RULING: Legal catch, the ball is live. (1-CATCH/NO CATCH-A[2]). Also see rule supplement "Falling over the fence on a catch"

However, NCAA and Fed both treat the bottom of the fence as a "out of play line"

Originally Posted by NCAA 2014-2015 Rule book

1.20 Fair Territory
The wedge shaped area of the playing field within and including the foul lines from home plate to the bottom of the home-run fence and perpendicularly upward. Home plate, the bases, foul lines and poles are considered part of fair territory. Additionally, see AR 12.12.5: (snipped) In establishing "over the home run fence" on a collapsed fence, the plane is established from the base of the fence on the ground to the top of the fence when it is correctly positioned, not the top of the fence as it is falling or has fallen away from the field.

(sorry for not having a NFHS reference)
In both NCAA and NFHS, you can make a catch while crashing through the fence, but you cannot be on the ground beyond the fence line. I believe the first PGF championship game had this in question.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

In the OP, the player has not left live ball territory, even though he/she touches DBT.

In all codes, the play in the OP (which is shown on the facebook video), should be ruled as a catch and carry. The fed rule was provided Ernie in post #14; NCAA 9.3 Note 5.

[IRISHMAFIA]

To start, shame on every umpire who references the "feet in fair territory" without a disclaimer. WTF does the feet being in fair territory have to do with any of this? Y'all should know better.

AFA the NFHS & NCAA rules are concerned, not a big fan. Without a 5/6 umpire crew, it can be very difficult for an umpire to judge the position of an outfielder if the fence is pushed away from it's positioning. If using the face of the fence, at least of have a consistent and, IMO, much better reference with which to make a judgment.

Let me ask this question: If in NCAA/NFHS a temp fence is pushed back by the fielder and the ball hits the front of the fence, how is that not a GRD? The ball has traveled beyond the defined playable territory and struck an item in DBT.

[BretMan]

Definitely a catch...but what about the carry?


NFHS 5-1-1(i): Ball becomes dead immediately when...

i. a fielder, after catching a fair or foul batted ball (fly or line drive), leaves the field of play by stepping with one foot or by falling into a designated dead-ball area (i.e., bench, dugout, stand/bleacher, etc.).

NOTE: If a chalk line or imaginary line is used to determine dead-ball (out-of-play) territory, the line is considered in play.

a. If the fielder's feet are touching the line or are in live-ball territory, she is considered in the field of play and legally may field, catch or throw the ball without penalty.

b. If the player's entire foot (no part of the foot is touching in live-ball territory) is beyond the line and touches dead-ball territory at the time she catches, fields or throws the ball, she has entered dead-ball territory, the ball is dead, no play is allowed.

c. If a fielder has one foot in play and the other foot in the air, she legally may catch, field or throw the ball unless her entire foot contacts the ground in dead- ball territory, at which time the ball becomes dead, no play is allowed, and the penalty is applied.

d. If a fielder contacts dead-ball territory with any part of the body except the foot, she is considered out of play. No play is allowed, and the penalty is applied. When the fielder completely leaves and then re-establishes herself within liveball territory (both feet in live-ball territory), a catch would be allowed.


The highlighted sentence tells us that, following the catch, this fielder subsequently became "out of play" when her hand touched the ground in dead ball area.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by agr8zebra

Granted the angle isn't great, but the physics of momentum tells she had to use something to return to the field of play so quickly. A collaspible I know wouldn't be ridgid enough.

The collapsible is laying completely on the ground with fielder on top of it. If fielder were to lift herself up while completely on top of the fence which is laying on ground then ball still live. Only if she touches ground beyond fence is it a dead ball. Film shows like she did touch DBT but as Irish points out without a six man crew very hard to see that with the speed fielder bounced up.

We have several fields here where the outfield fence has opening on both ends in foul ground. The ground rule is that imaginary line extends from end of outfield fence to intersection with fence parallel to foul line. A fair batted ball can go out of play there. On occasion a batted or overthrown ball may come to rest very near this imaginary line.. If fielder picks up ball before umpire can judge that it went out of play then it never did, play on. This play in the 3A game looks similar. Blue never saw momentary touch of DBT so it never happened play on.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Definitely a catch...but what about the carry?


NFHS 5-1-1(i): Ball becomes dead immediately when...

i. a fielder, after catching a fair or foul batted ball (fly or line drive), leaves the field of play by stepping with one foot or by falling into a designated dead-ball area (i.e., bench, dugout, stand/bleacher, etc.).

NOTE: If a chalk line or imaginary line is used to determine dead-ball (out-of-play) territory, the line is considered in play.

a. If the fielder's feet are touching the line or are in live-ball territory, she is considered in the field of play and legally may field, catch or throw the ball without penalty.

b. If the player's entire foot (no part of the foot is touching in live-ball territory) is beyond the line and touches dead-ball territory at the time she catches, fields or throws the ball, she has entered dead-ball territory, the ball is dead, no play is allowed.

c. If a fielder has one foot in play and the other foot in the air, she legally may catch, field or throw the ball unless her entire foot contacts the ground in dead- ball territory, at which time the ball becomes dead, no play is allowed, and the penalty is applied.

d. If a fielder contacts dead-ball territory with any part of the body except the foot, she is considered out of play. No play is allowed, and the penalty is applied. When the fielder completely leaves and then re-establishes herself within liveball territory (both feet in live-ball territory), a catch would be allowed.


The highlighted sentence tells us that, following the catch, this fielder subsequently became "out of play" when her hand touched the ground in dead ball area.

Playing on the field with about a 5' fence, OF runs to the fence, leaps and makes a grab over the fence, but comes downs and catchers the fence with her arm catching herself from falling. In the process the non-glove hand and arm come down and grab the back of the fence, DBT. You ruling that a C&C?

Playing on a field with an 3' thick, 4' high padded brick wall. Long fly ball, OF jumps onto the top of the fence beyond the vertical plane from the base of the fence. I don't know of any baseball or softball rules which forbid the defense from standing on the fence to make a catch.

Yes, the second one is a rarity, the first really isn't as much a rarity as you think especially in the men's sp game, but still address the issue of the what and where contact occurs with DBT.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

The collapsible is laying completely on the ground with fielder on top of it. If fielder were to lift herself up while completely on top of the fence which is laying on ground then ball still live. Only if she touches ground beyond fence is it a dead ball. Film shows like she did touch DBT but as Irish points out without a six man crew very hard to see that with the speed fielder bounced up.

Correct for ASA; probably not correct for NCAA or NFHS (depending on where the fence is laying).

As noted by Big Slick earlier, ASA allows the collapsed fence to extend live ball area, applying the top of the fence (be it upright or collapsed) as the dead ball line. Both NCAA and NFHS apply the BASE of the fence as the dead ball line.

When the fence goes down (and we can assume it fell outside the playing field on these plays), the fence is now laying in dead ball territory, and pushing off that fence (or the ball laying on the fence) creates a dead ball situation. Rule 2.9.4 and case play 2.9.4; it is a legal catch while contacting or stepping on the collapsible fence which is NOT completely horizontal. So what is it when the fence IS completely horizontal? No catch, dead ball territory. Home run if fair.

My "probably" in the first sentence is if the fence somehow fell into the playing field (wind blown perhaps?); if it is inside the dead ball line established by the base of the fence when perpendicular, we are still in live ball territory.

As Big Slick also mentioned, a related play happened in the first year's PGF championship game; I can assure you this particular ruling under NFHS rules has been vetted from the very top.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Just to add to my post above.

When that play happened in the PGF championship game, I was watching the game with (among others) John Bennett; the John Bennett that writes the rules differences document, that is the umpire representative on the NCAA Rules Committee, and, I believe, the California state rules interpreter for the CIF (their high school organization). He and I looked at each other and said simultaneously "that's not right" when the uncaught ball was sitting on the horizontal fence and judged to be live.

In defense of the umpire in that game, he doesn't call high school; and the rule set was changed from NCAA rules (that he knows extremely well) to NFHS (not much at all). You can say (now) that NCAA and NFHS are the same, but different from ASA, but he didn't have that information available at the time; and John and I (and others) were off-site, watching on the ESPN TV broadcast.

If you are wondering (you shouldn't!!), Garland Cooper had no clue, but kept talking as if she knew the rule.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

He and I looked at each other and said simultaneously "that's not right" when the uncaught ball was sitting on the horizontal fence and judged to be live.

Maybe the fence only made it to 179 degrees.

[agr8zebra]

I emailed a guy on the Nfhs rules comittee, he said catch, then dead ball when the ball in the glove was grounded.

I realize it would be hard to see in a two man crew, maybe a little easies in 3, but still hard.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by agr8zebra

I emailed a guy on the Nfhs rules comittee, he said catch, then dead ball when the ball in the glove was grounded.

I disagree with that ruling. If that's the case, then anytime the ball is in the glove over the fence, and the glove touches something on that side of the fence, it's a dead ball.

For example, a fielder reaches into the stands to catch a foul pop. She makes the catch, and then her glove hits a number of fans' hands and arms as they reached for the ball as well. Or she reaches over the fence and catches the ball, and then her glove contacts something beyond the fence, like the bullpen netting, the back of a bleacher chair, etc, etc.

Are you going to rule a dead ball in those situations? I hope not. And I don't see how you would in this case either.

[agr8zebra]

I would call this one because had she not used dead ball territory to reverse her momentum her whole body would have ended in DBT.

A minor touching of a fan, post, tree limb I would ignore because no advantage was gained by the action. Just like we say in Basketball, Advantage-Disadvantage.