Another strange one, from a friend

[chapmaja]

Here is another strange one. Not my game, but I heard about it through a friend.

Team A (visitors) uses a garbage can to store all of their bats (why I don't know). Prior to the game, the coaches pull all the bats out for inspection and they pass inspection and are cold to the touch. During play late in the of the first game of a DH, the catcher for the opposing team grabs a bat to hand it back to a Team A batter after a foul ball and it feels warm to the touch. The catcher comments to the umpire that the bats feel really warm and she thinks they are being warmed.

The umpire takes the bat and it indeed feels much warmed than a bat on a 40 degree day should feel. The umpires get together and feel they have reason to think that Team A us using a bat warmer to warm the bats. Upon inspection of the dugout it is determined that between the time the bats were inspected and when the game started someone put a lit Sterno can in the bottom of the garbage can. The heat from that can was acting as a bat warmer. By rule these bats are now illegal (altered).

The batter is declared out and ejected for using an illegal bat. The bats that were in the warmer are all deemed to be altered bats, and as such are no longer legal for use. This brings up a major problem for Team A. As was stated above, all the teams bats are stored in this can, and now all of them have been deemed to be altered bats, and as such are not legal for play. Without having any bats available there is no way they could continue batting. The opposing coach is not one to let the team borrow bats either.

The umpires in this game got luck in that the out for the altered bat was the last out of the inning, and the home team scored the needed runs to end the game by mercy rule in the home half of the inning.


This does bring up a few questions though.

First, what can be done in a situation where a team has all bats deemed illegal bats, and thus has none to use. Does the team forfeit the game because they can't legally play due to a lack of legal equipment?

Second, this has been talked about with multiple interpretations since last year, would the bats be legal for game two of a double header since the infraction happened in game one? (this did not apply since the acting coaches did not want to play the second game due to the cold).

My opinion is that the bats should be rechecked after game 1 of the double header prior to the start of the second game. If they have cooled down, they are no longer warmed bats, and as such are no longer altered. Thus they should be allowed in the game.

[LIUmp]

What the hell goes on up in your neck of the woods?!?!?!

Bizzarro....

[Manny A]

There is a reference in the NFHS Case Book where an illegal bat is removed from the game "or made to be legal". But in those situations, what made the bats illegal was something that could be fixed by removing tape and pine tar from the bat handles. The question is: When a bat cools back down after being placed in a warmer, does that make it legal again?

The rules are not clear on that. NFHS (and NCAA, by the way) consider warmed bats as altered bats that are structurally changed, which is in the same category as rolled or shaved bats. Frankly, I think that's a ludricous comparison. Structural changes to rolled or shaved bats are permanent in nature. I've never seen anything anywhere that says structural changes to warmed bats stay that way even after being cooled.

But because NFHS lumps warmed bats together with rolled and shaved bats, they leave no recourse to make those bats legal. The one case play in the case book about warmed bats does not say anything about those bats becoming legal once they're cooled off.

So to answer your questions, if a team doesn't have any bats to use, then a forfeit is warranted. What else are you going to do? The other team isn't obliged to provide them with equipment. Serves the team right for putting every one of their bats into their hillbilly bat warmer. And as for game 2 of a DH, they'd better go to the store and buy one bat that hasn't been structurally altered if they want to play.

[MD Longhorn]

Manny raises good points.

However, every game is different. A separate entity. I would not let these bats be "made legal" for game one. However, I would do a bat check again at the beginning of game two. If they are not warm, they are legal.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by liump

what the hell goes on up in your neck of the woods?!?!?!

Bizzarro....

lmao!

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

lmao!

I think the record setting snow this winter has something to do with it. It is getting strange some of the things I'm hearing have happened so far around Michigan.

I think part of it is that there seem to be a lot of inexperienced coaches at the JV level this year (several problems have occurred with teams having new coaches, including the hillbilly bat rack team.

Hopefully today is just two normal JV softball games with nothing strange going on. No warmers, no lineup cards with wrong numbers, no anything else. I just want two normal games.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Manny raises good points.

However, every game is different. A separate entity. I would not let these bats be "made legal" for game one. However, I would do a bat check again at the beginning of game two. If they are not warm, they are legal.

That was my thinking on this. Would those bats be legal in a game played two days later? The umpires likely would not know the bats were in a warmer, and as long as they passed a pregame check that day, they should be legal.

In my opinion, two days later or an hour later really doesn't make a difference, it is a different game.

I know this was a topic of discussion last year as well at one of the associations. Some umpires say it's out for both games, others say if they are legal when you check prior to game two, they are legal for game two because they are two distinct and separate games.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I think the record setting snow this winter has something to do with it. It is getting strange some of the things I'm hearing have happened so far around Michigan.

I think part of it is that there seem to be a lot of inexperienced coaches at the JV level this year (several problems have occurred with teams having new coaches, including the hillbilly bat rack team.

Hopefully today is just two normal JV softball games with nothing strange going on. No warmers, no lineup cards with wrong numbers, no anything else. I just want two normal games.

Experience does nothing to help at the JV level. Nothing.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So to answer your questions, if a team doesn't have any bats to use, then a forfeit is warranted. What else are you going to do?

One option is put your lineup in there one at a time and take your chances by BB, HBP or being called out on strikes.

Hell, in a JV game, this would be an interesting bet.
Unless you squeeze your zone....

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

One option is put your lineup in there one at a time and take your chances by BB, HBP or being called out on strikes.

Hell, in a JV game, this would be an interesting bet.
Unless you squeeze your zone....

You have a point. Nowhere in the rules does it say that a batter must entered the batters box with a bat.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

One option is put your lineup in there one at a time and take your chances by BB, HBP or being called out on strikes.

Hell, in a JV game, this would be an interesting bet.
Unless you squeeze your zone....

Ha ha! Yeah, there is no rule actually requiring the batter to use a bat! And, I'd bet there would be more than one runner on base in a JV game!

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Ha ha! Yeah, there is no rule actually requiring the batter to use a bat! And, I'd bet there would be more than one runner on base in a JV game!

Depends on the JV game. My games today was two unevenly matched teams (43-0 total score, with the winning team only coming up 4 times to bat). They still would have won without bats in their hands because half the pitches they got were over the catchers head or bounced before the plate. Their pitcher made we wonder what the varsity pitchers at her school were like because she was good.

Today's game was so bad, in the last inning the winning team got a base on balls, and he told his runner just to keep running, knowing she would be thrown out at some point. After two overthrows she scored the final run. Half the outs called were for runners leaving early (intentionally).

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

You have a point. Nowhere in the rules does it say that a batter must entered the batters box with a bat.

NFHS Rule 3-6-1: "Team personnel shall wear or use legal and/or required equipment. (1-4, 5, 6, 7; 3-2; 3-5-1)"

Yeah, while the book doesn't outright say the batter must enter the box with a bat, what I highlighted in 3-6-1 certainly implies it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

NFHS Rule 3-6-1: "Team personnel shall wear or use legal and/or required equipment. (1-4, 5, 6, 7; 3-2; 3-5-1)"

Yeah, while the book doesn't outright say the batter must enter the box with a bat, what I highlighted in 3-6-1 certainly implies it.

Yes, but where does it say a bat is required? Required equipment is listed elsewhere - a bat is not one of them. Specifications are layed out as to what a legal bat is vs an illegal one --- but no where is it required.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Yes, but where does it say a bat is required? Required equipment is listed elsewhere - a bat is not one of them. Specifications are layed out as to what a legal bat is vs an illegal one --- but no where is it required.

Seems to me that all equipment listed by rule number right after the rule--1-4 (gloves/mitts), 1-5 (bats), 1-6 (helmets) and 1-7 (catcher's gear)--is considered required.

If you really want to play that game, where does it say a batter can't use TWO bats while batting? Would you allow it?