NFHS unreported defensive change

[roadking]

I'm looking for the rule reference for NFHS unreported defensive change.
I don't have a book on me now. Thx

[RKBUmp]

unreported defensive substitution or just change of position? No requirement to report just a change of defensive positions, and only ones to worry about are pitcher and catcher for courtesy runner eligibility.

[roadking]

Can you tell me the rules reference for only a defensive change? To my recollection NF all changes had to be reported. I'm just trying to make sure I'm not mixing my rule sets. Thx

[RKBUmp]

Cant cite a rule that doesnt exist. Defensive position changes are not required to be reported. Dont have my rule book with me to cite the number, the only thing the book says is that all substitutions must be reported to the plate umpire. NCAA requires all defensive changes to be reported.

[Moosie74]

3-3-2 covers who needs to be recorded. DP/Flex and pitcher/catcher must be known as there are restrictions on them.

[roadking]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Cant cite a rule that doesnt exist. Defensive position changes are not required to be reported. Dont have my rule book with me to cite the number, the only thing the book says is that all substitutions must be reported to the plate umpire. NCAA requires all defensive changes to be reported.

Thanks I found rules 2014 publication on the NFHS and did see "all substitutions must be reported" and nothing on defensive changes.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Moosie74

3-3-2 covers who needs to be recorded. DP/Flex and pitcher/catcher must be known as there are restrictions on them.

DP must be reported if playing defense for the FLEX
FLEX must be reported if batting for the DP

Courtesy runner must be reported when they are running for the pitcher or catcher.

It is not required to report a defensive change involving the pitcher or catcher, however, a smart coach that is using a courtesy runner will make sure the PU knows that there is a new pitcher or catcher.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Andy

It is not required to report a defensive change involving the pitcher or catcher, however, a smart coach that is using a courtesy runner will make sure the PU knows that there is a new pitcher or catcher.

And a savvy PU will know when there is a new pitcher or catcher as soon as they come out to warm up and begin play. Before that happens, there cannot be a courtesy runner for them.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Manny A

And a savvy PU will know when there is a new pitcher or catcher as soon as they come out to warm up and begin play. Before that happens, there cannot be a courtesy runner for them.

Of course, you are absolutely correct.

It has been my experience, however, that there are far more non-savvy umpires than there are savvy ones......

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Andy

Of course, you are absolutely correct.

It has been my experience, however, that there are far more non-savvy umpires than there are savvy ones......

Which brings up an interesting question (interesting to me, anyway).

Im one of those guys that keeps track of who is pitching and who is catching, which substitutes are available to run, who they have for and who is no longer available to run.
So far I have been "savvy" enough to not have a problem. When I see a new f1 or f2,
I will confirm it with both coaches.

But the question is, if for some reason I wasn't "savy" enough and did not notice a change (all those f2s look alike from the back) and in the next half inning, they want to use a CR what happens?
I look at my line up card and see a different player listed as f2.
Am I supposed to take the coaches word for it (that goes against my religion :-) )?
What about the other coach who never noticed the change?

Just wondering... if it happens ill let you know?

[roadking]

A NFHS rule does exist on defensive switches:

3-1-6 . . . A player may change to a different fielding position at any time, except as in 3-3-2 Note.

3-3-2 NOTE: A pitcher may be removed as a pitcher and return as a pitcher only once per inning provided the return does not violate either the substitution or charged conference rule.

-------------------------------- ---------------------------------- ----------------------------------

I didn't follow the savy coach or umpire comments, CR will always need to be reported by the coach when they run for F1 or F2:

3-3-4 . . . A substitute or courtesy runner shall not enter the contest unreported. (3-6-7 Penalty, 8-9-7)

CR are married to the position that they run for until they enter the game as a sub.
If CR #55 is the CR runner for F1, she would be CR #55 for any pitcher that has entered the game until #55 enters the game as a sub.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by roadking

A NFHS rule does exist on defensive switches:

3-1-6 . . . A player may change to a different fielding position at any time, except as in 3-3-2 Note.

3-3-2 NOTE: A pitcher may be removed as a pitcher and return as a pitcher only once per inning provided the return does not violate either the substitution or charged conference rule.

-------------------------------- ---------------------------------- ----------------------------------

I didn't follow the savy coach or umpire comments, CR will always need to be reported by the coach when they run for F1 or F2:

3-3-4 . . . A substitute or courtesy runner shall not enter the contest unreported. (3-6-7 Penalty, 8-9-7)

CR are married to the position that they run for until they enter the game as a sub.
If CR #55 is the CR runner for F1, she would be CR #55 for any pitcher that has entered the game until #55 enters the game as a sub.

Re: the "savy umpire" question.

Yes CR must be reported... The question comes up if there is a change of pitcher that is unnoticed (and therefore unrecorded on the line-up card). This is not likely to happen during a change that occurs during a half inning, but could conceivably h happen between half innings... Again, us savvy umpires would notice, but......

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Which brings up an interesting question (interesting to me, anyway).

Im one of those guys that keeps track of who is pitching and who is catching, which substitutes are available to run, who they have for and who is no longer available to run.
So far I have been "savvy" enough to not have a problem. When I see a new f1 or f2,
I will confirm it with both coaches.

But the question is, if for some reason I wasn't "savy" enough and did not notice a change (all those f2s look alike from the back) and in the next half inning, they want to use a CR what happens?
I look at my line up card and see a different player listed as f2.
Am I supposed to take the coaches word for it (that goes against my religion :-) )?
What about the other coach who never noticed the change?

Just wondering... if it happens ill let you know?

So the coach fails to inform you of a position change where there is a new F2. And then he/she wants to enter a CR for that new F2, but you don't have a record that this player was the last F2 to physically play the position of catcher.

Well, if the new F2 was an unreported substitute, I definitely wouldn't allow the CR to run for her. The coach is required to report substitutions, and since he/she didn't, that's his/her fault, not mine.

As for a simple defensive switch, yes there is no real rule requiring any reporting of that. But I personally would not allow the CR to enter the game under that condition either. I still have no record of the new F2 playing defense, and my lineup card is the official lineup of where players bat and field. If it doesn't show the new F2 as playing catcher, I feel I can't allow a CR for her, regardless of the rules not requiring announcement of defensive position changes. The coach should have let me know of the change, especially if he/she intended on entering a CR for her.

That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So the coach fails to inform you of a position change where there is a new F2. And then he/she wants to enter a CR for that new F2, but you don't have a record that this player was the last F2 to physically play the position of catcher.

Well, if the new F2 was an unreported substitute, I definitely wouldn't allow the CR to run for her. The coach is required to report substitutions, and since he/she didn't, that's his/her fault, not mine.

As for a simple defensive switch, yes there is no real rule requiring any reporting of that. But I personally would not allow the CR to enter the game under that condition either. I still have no record of the new F2 playing defense, and my lineup card is the official lineup of where players bat and field. If it doesn't show the new F2 as playing catcher, I feel I can't allow a CR for her, regardless of the rules not requiring announcement of defensive position changes. The coach should have let me know of the change, especially if he/she intended on entering a CR for her.

That's my argument and I'm sticking to it.

That's pretty much the way I see it, too.
I was just wondering if there were any discussion points to the contrary.
(And by the way, that's why I try to stay "savvy" and notice those changes so I can deal with it before the CR issue cones up)