From another board

[shagpal]

well, instigate, initiate, whatever. it certainly deserves postgame, and I would. but I think you are out of your mind to ponder anything during a game.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Instigate?

I don't think that word means what you think it does.

Initiate? Depending on partner, yes. If there's any likelihood partner's decision is a rules error, we have an obligation to see it fixed. If I don't know partner, or if partner is someone I know to be new, I'm absolutely INITIATING ( ) a conversation with him to ask him if his decision is correct by rule. This (potentially at least) is equivalent to partner ruling someone out on IFF with 2 outs. We fix rule errors if we know a rule error has been made. We're required to.

OTOH, if this is a partner that I know to be knowledgable on the rules, I let it lie and ask him afterward why he made the ruling he made (and why he was fishing in my pond). Until then (unless asked by partner), I assume he saw something from his angle that I did not from mine that made him make this call.

[MD Longhorn]

IB - I'm good with all of your last post. And I agree with you that it's not interference.

My beef was with the crutch - "She was just doing what she was supposed to do". As an umpire, I cringe when a coach says that - it tells me he/she doesn't have any idea what the book says - it just doesn't "FEEL" right to them. When an umpire says it? Cringe is not nearly strong enough.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by shagpal

well, instigate, initiate, whatever. it certainly deserves postgame, and I would. but I think you are out of your mind to ponder anything during a game.

What do you do when your partner makes what is obviously an incorrect call by rule? (Not judgement ... rule). If your partner errs on an inappropriate IFF call ... or awards bases on a ball out of play based on TOP instead of TOT, etc --- do you do anything?

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

IB - I'm good with all of your last post. And I agree with you that it's not interference.

My beef was with the crutch - "She was just doing what she was supposed to do". As an umpire, I cringe when a coach says that - it tells me he/she doesn't have any idea what the book says - it just doesn't "FEEL" right to them. When an umpire says it? Cringe is not nearly strong enough.

I hear you on that but on here I guess I dumb things down.
I have not had a problem on the field with an explanation or interpretation since my first year umpiring.

All of my different units insist we learn how to speak the rules to coaches. so I guess that is how I talk on here from her out.

[shagpal]

this is a judgement call. actually, its not even his call, but nonetheless his call not for you to try to change. if he asks for help, he has to change it on his own self initated.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What do you do when your partner makes what is obviously an incorrect call by rule? (Not judgement ... rule). If your partner errs on an inappropriate IFF call ... or awards bases on a ball out of play based on TOP instead of TOT, etc --- do you do anything?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by shagpal

this is a judgement call. actually, its not even his call, but nonetheless his call not for you to try to change. if he asks for help, he has to change it on his own self initated.

You've changed the argument.

I find it hard to believe you can be 100% sure this error (and there's no question there's a mistake here) is a judgement call. ESPECIALLY if this is a newer official. In fact, I suspect the BU who made this call - the actual one in the video - does not understand the rule correctly. Assuming an umpire with reasonable judgement skills, I find it MORE likely that he called this out because he misunderstands the rules than because he actually understands the rule correctly and within the framework of that rule judges the actions we see in this video as interference.

If, upon speaking with the umpire, it's judgement that caused this awful call, we live with it. And I'm not going to insert my judgement into the conversation. But given what we see on this play, I have to strongly suspect a mistaken rule interpretation - and it's imperative that we correct rule errors on the field when possible.

[shagpal]

I haven't changed a thing.

the majority of INT and OBS calls are judgement. you simply disagree with his judgement, which I am not suggesting you shouldn't. I am suggesting it is poor crewmanship to question so during play on the field.

I am suggesting you are not a wise partner.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

You've changed the argument.

I find it hard to believe you can be 100% sure this error (and there's no question there's a mistake here) is a judgement call. ESPECIALLY if this is a newer official. In fact, I suspect the BU who made this call - the actual one in the video - does not understand the rule correctly. Assuming an umpire with reasonable judgement skills, I find it MORE likely that he called this out because he misunderstands the rules than because he actually understands the rule correctly and within the framework of that rule judges the actions we see in this video as interference.

If, upon speaking with the umpire, it's judgement that caused this awful call, we live with it. And I'm not going to insert my judgement into the conversation. But given what we see on this play, I have to strongly suspect a mistaken rule interpretation - and it's imperative that we correct rule errors on the field when possible.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by shagpal

I haven't changed a thing.

You did. Completely.

If this call was made because of judgement (albeit quite poor), we live with it. I've said nothing different.

My original point ... the one you called me "out of my mind" for ... was that IF this is a rules error, we should fix it - yet then you simply state, without any basis in fact, that it is a judgement call.

If it's a judgement call - I agree with you - we live with the call. I find it highly unlikely that this error is an error in judgement.

You've completely dodged the question I asked you. If you are on the field and partner makes a rules error - do you do nothing, or do you fix it?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by shagpal

the majority of INT and OBS calls are judgement.

Agreed. But I have a strong feeling that this one is not - strong enough that I think it's important to find out one way or the other.

you simply disagree with his judgement, which I am not suggesting you shouldn't. I am suggesting it is poor crewmanship to question so during play on the field.

I am suggesting you are not a wise partner.

I find it hard to imagine what partner saw here (judgement) that would make this a right call by rule. I invite you to give me an example of what he might say that would make this a right call, by rule. What could he have seen here that makes this the right ruling?

[shagpal]

get over your feelings and your urgent sense of judgement.

you can reconcile after the game and fix any errors you find with partners postgame. on the field, this a partners judgement call, period. and that is the way you want to leave it. if asked by anyone other than your BU, that is how you should convey in words and body language during and after the game.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Agreed. But I have a strong feeling that this one is not - strong enough that I think it's important to find out one way or the other. I find it hard to imagine what partner saw here (judgement) that would make this a right call by rule. I invite you to give me an example of what he might say that would make this a right call, by rule. What could he have seen here that makes this the right ruling?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

I hear you on that but on here I guess I dumb things down. ...

I think we've just been insulted!

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think we've just been insulted!

Only a few of you

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

its in the video.

You cannot even see half of his face once the catch is made and much less afterward. He is doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing, watching the play.

If I had to guess, I would say he is waiting for what never came, the partner looking for him if someone questioned the call.

He may have been dumbfounded, but unless you were the BU, you don't know

[shagpal]

his face isn't even a factor. he drew all attention to himself by freezing in that WTF pose while everyone else went about their business.

even the batter said some words as she approached, and he never turned to look, but he appeared to give a shrug. he was "gawking" at the play and lingering far too long after not to draw attention. its all in body language and some lack of. he telegraphed that he expected something coming such as a questioning of the call.

if he wanted to be in a better spot and available to help, how about he take his pad out and move into foul area near the running lane and wait while pretending to be jotting instead of starring down that image of a play long finished, or at least sweep the plate as he normally would have done.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You cannot even see half of his face once the catch is made and much less afterward. He is doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing, watching the play.

If I had to guess, I would say he is waiting for what never came, the partner looking for him if someone questioned the call.

He may have been dumbfounded, but unless you were the BU, you don't know

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

his face isn't even a factor. he drew all attention to himself by freezing in that WTF pose while everyone else went about their business.

even the batter said some words as she approached, and he never turned to look, but he appeared to give a shrug. he was "gawking" at the play and lingering far too long after not to draw attention. its all in body language and some lack of. he telegraphed that he expected something coming such as a questioning of the call.

if he wanted to be in a better spot and available to help, how about he take his pad out and move into foul area near the running lane and wait while pretending to be jotting instead of starring down that image of a play long finished, or at least sweep the plate as he normally would have done.

Why should he "pretend" anything? And why would he respond to anything anyone has to say about a call that he didn't make?

You've some imagination, but you might want to leave that in your equipment bag.