U3 Button-Hook

[Manny A]

Sorry if this post sounds a little arcane, but I'm having trouble visualizing what ASA wants from U3 under three-man when it says U3 should button-hook inside the diamond on a base hit to the outfield. I went through some three-man training yesterday in prep for a National, and I was screwing things up left and right.

How is that button-hook executed? Does U3 go down foul territory, pivot 90 degrees into the infield in front of third base, and then button-hook to watch a runner touch third? Or does U3 go straight to the button-hook position through fair territory, similar to how U1 executes it?

I tried the latter, but I quickly realized that I could easily get into the runner's path as she was approaching third. So then I tried to wait to let the runner pass, and by then I felt I could get into trouble if there was a throw to third should the runner take too wide a turn.

Then I tried by going down foul territory, but that also seemed to take too much time, and I still felt I might get into the runner's path as she rounded the base.

The only time I really felt comfortable was when there were runners at first and third, and I didn't have a runner heading for the base. I would still go down foul territory and then come in. But I'm still unsure that's the "ASA School Solution" on how to execute.

Comments?

[okla21fan]

Button hooking from either the foul side, or 'straight' to inside are exceptable depending on where the ball is hit, and how the runner from 2nd is approaching. Both are taught at advance camps (ASA).

[Manny A]

(Note to self: Attend an advance camp...)

Thanks much.

[shagpal]

$400 to learn how to button hook just to watch a runner touch?

What advantage does button hooking provide when there is no play at the base? Stay outside and outa the way to watch the base touched.

Originally Posted by Manny A

(Note to self: Attend an advance camp...)

Thanks much.

[okla21fan]

Because that is the prescribed mechanic. When in Rome theory at work here

[shagpal]

The downfall of an empire.

Originally Posted by okla21fan

Because that is the prescribed mechanic. When in Rome theory at work here

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by shagpal

What advantage does button hooking provide when there is no play at the base? Stay outside and outa the way to watch the base touched.

That's what I did the first time a runner approached third on a clean base hit. And my association UIC who was providing the training said ASA wants us to button-hook on those. I checked the Umpire Manual, and sure enough that's what it instructs.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by shagpal

$400 to learn how to button hook just to watch a runner touch?

What advantage does button hooking provide when there is no play at the base? Stay outside and outa the way to watch the base touched.

If executed properly, no more or no less an advantage than staying outside....either one works just fine.

But it's the mechanic & coverage that ASA uses in their three-umpire system to cover the five situations (runner(s) on/base hit to OF) and their mechanic requires 3B to button hook inside the diamond.

The OP is about the poster going to an ASA Nat, working on his 3-man in preparation, and realizing that his execution on that particular coverage is not where he feels needs it to be and wants to improve on it. He obviously understands the importance placed on; and the expectation of proper mechanics by his tournament UIC and crew mates at the Nat.

Now the bolded part.."button hook just to watch a runner touch."
Depending how the play develops in any of the five runner configurations that has 3B button hooking inside the diamond, he will always have other responsibilities. "There's always a job to do", no matter which sanctioning body's mechanics are being used. That's just good umpiring.

[shagpal]

So he will do as he's told, or else he won't work, but he had to come here to ask how to do it when it could a been explained right on the spot.

$400 to be taught how to do it is BS.

Originally Posted by KJUmp

If executed properly, no more or no less an advantage than staying outside....either one works just fine.

But it's the mechanic & coverage that ASA uses in their three-umpire system to cover the five situations (runner(s) on/base hit to OF) and their mechanic requires 3B to button hook inside the diamond.

The OP is about the poster going to an ASA Nat, working on his 3-man in preparation, and realizing that his execution on that particular coverage is not where he feels needs it to be and wants to improve on it. He obviously understands the importance placed on; and the expectation of proper mechanics by his tournament UIC and crew mates at the Nat.

Now the bolded part.."button hook just to watch a runner touch."
Depending how the play develops in any of the five runner configurations that has 3B button hooking inside the diamond, he will always have other responsibilities. "There's always a job to do", no matter sanctioning body's mechanics are being used. That's just good umpiring.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

(Note to self: Attend an advance camp...)

Thanks much.

If you've never been, I'm sure that attending one would help your game.

However, relative to the awkwardness you're experiencing with the button hook at 3B....I think it's like a lot of 3-man coverage mechanics (any org's.); we simply don't get the opportunity to work 3-man often enough to be as sharp and precise in our movements as we are in the two-man system.

Over the last four years, with the the four sanctions that I work, about 10% of my FP games (10/12) every season have been in the three-umpire system. However, I've yet to have the opportunity to work any ASA three-man. As such I'm in no position to offer any suggestions as to how do it properly.....ASA wise. There are plenty of good ASA guys here on the board that can though, plus continue to work with your local UIC.

Good luck at your National

[xtremeump]

Originally Posted by okla21fan

Button hooking from either the foul side, or 'straight' to inside are exceptable depending on where the ball is hit, and how the runner from 2nd is approaching. Both are taught at advance camps (ASA).

Let the play take you to your position, sometimes in, sometimes foul, and I also agree sometimes outside. Do not be a ROBOT, know the game and get to where you have the best angle for your calls without being in the way of the playing action. 3 man mechanics are great, do not be overwhelmed by everyone telling you that there is a perfect position all of the time. Sorry for the long post and I hope that I didn't hurt anyone's feelings. I did not do well in TIME OUT.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Sorry if this post sounds a little arcane, but I'm having trouble visualizing what ASA wants from U3 under three-man when it says U3 should button-hook inside the diamond on a base hit to the outfield. I went through some three-man training yesterday in prep for a National, and I was screwing things up left and right.

How is that button-hook executed? Does U3 go down foul territory, pivot 90 degrees into the infield in front of third base, and then button-hook to watch a runner touch third? Or does U3 go straight to the button-hook position through fair territory, similar to how U1 executes it?

I tried the latter, but I quickly realized that I could easily get into the runner's path as she was approaching third. So then I tried to wait to let the runner pass, and by then I felt I could get into trouble if there was a throw to third should the runner take too wide a turn.

Then I tried by going down foul territory, but that also seemed to take too much time, and I still felt I might get into the runner's path as she rounded the base.

The only time I really felt comfortable was when there were runners at first and third, and I didn't have a runner heading for the base. I would still go down foul territory and then come in. But I'm still unsure that's the "ASA School Solution" on how to execute.

Comments?

Do you button-hook @ 1B? Why would it be different @ 3B?

My opinion:

It seems your concern is the runner coming from 2B while you are on 3rd. Remember, depending upon the situation, you may also have F5 & F6 in the area.

I would not set 18-21 feet behind the base, but closer to 10-12', if that. Assume you are not going out. if the ball is to center or right, take your time, let the runner pass and come inside.

If to left, make sure there will not be a quick throw to 3B. If it is on the line, it isn't too hard to take a couple steps fair out of the line of the throw. If away from the line, stay foul and get an angle on the play. If there is no play, take an outside route to avoid the runner. Look out for the coach and F5 returning to cover 3B. Depending on your UIC, you may get asked why you went that way. Just tell them why and you should be fine. Don't think you would get gigged on it as long as you get inside without incident.

When the ball is to right, don't come in too deep, stay near the line. This is where Henry and I had a nice "discussion" in Plant City because coming inside where an umpire would normally button-hook can place the umpire in the path of the throw, not a good place to be. He did not disagree with me, but the mechanic was the mechanic.

AFA staying outside, who is covering 1B & 2B, if you think there will a play @ 3B, but U1 decides to go?

[shagpal]

Would U1 chase on a clean base hit?

Even if U1 goes out to chase on a ground ball in error, it reverts to 2-man, and U3 has to go inside to take BR on the ASA chute play, PU takes runner into 3b, just as in 2-man.

OP is asking about NO CHASE.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

AFA staying outside, who is covering 1B & 2B, if you think there will a play @ 3B, but U1 decides to go?

Originally Posted by Manny A

That's what I did the first time a runner approached third on a clean base hit. And my association UIC who was providing the training said ASA wants us to button-hook on those. I checked the Umpire Manual, and sure enough that's what it instructs.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

Would U1 chase on a clean base hit?

Even if U1 goes out to chase on a ground ball in error, it reverts to 2-man, and U3 has to go inside to take BR on the ASA chute play, PU takes runner into 3b, just as in 2-man.

OP is asking about NO CHASE.

No, it said a base hit. Problem is what you may think is a clean base hit, U1 may not. I've seen people go out on a line drive that didn't get above the infielders' shoulders.

And you are not going to get a decent look at 2B or 3B from the outside. But I'm sure some people believe it is "good enough". I don't.

[shagpal]

Man, you are ASA THICK. "CLEAN BASE HIT" and NO CHASE, reread this thread. I had even quoted it for you.

and, if it reverts to 2-man on any U1 chase for whatever reason, good or bad, its the chute play. No way for U3 to cover BR from the outside. U3 has to cut across the diamond. Why would U3 be watching 3b on the chute play? That's PU.

What is your point?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, it said a base hit. Problem is what you may think is a clean base hit, U1 may not. I've seen people go out on a line drive that didn't get above the infielders' shoulders.

And you are not going to get a decent look at 2B or 3B from the outside. But I'm sure some people believe it is "good enough". I don't.