U3 Button-Hook

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by shagpal

Man, you are ASA THICK. "CLEAN BASE HIT" and NO CHASE, reread this thread. I had even quoted it for you.

and, if it reverts to 2-man on any U1 chase for whatever reason, good or bad, its the chute play. No way for U3 to cover BR from the outside. U3 has to cut across the diamond. Why would U3 be watching 3b on the chute play? That's PU.

What is your point?

so back to the OP, in 'your closed shop world' , what is the best way for U3 to 'come inside' (as it would be the prescribed mechanic in both worlds esp if U1 went out) using the outside/in theory (or button hook)?

[xtremeump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Do you button-hook @ 1B? Why would it be different @ 3B?

My opinion:

It seems your concern is the runner coming from 2B while you are on 3rd. Remember, depending upon the situation, you may also have F5 & F6 in the area.

I would not set 18-21 feet behind the base, but closer to 10-12', if that. Assume you are not going out. if the ball is to center or right, take your time, let the runner pass and come inside.

If to left, make sure there will not be a quick throw to 3B. If it is on the line, it isn't too hard to take a couple steps fair out of the line of the throw. If away from the line, stay foul and get an angle on the play. If there is no play, take an outside route to avoid the runner. Look out for the coach and F5 returning to cover 3B. Depending on your UIC, you may get asked why you went that way. Just tell them why and you should be fine. Don't think you would get gigged on it as long as you get inside without incident.

When the ball is to right, don't come in too deep, stay near the line. This is where Henry and I had a nice "discussion" in Plant City because coming inside where an umpire would normally button-hook can place the umpire in the path of the throw, not a good place to be. He did not disagree with me, but the mechanic was the mechanic.

AFA staying outside, who is covering 1B & 2B, if you think there will a play @ 3B, but U1 decides to go?

Your post is very nice : ) tell me what is the diference in your post and my post ? Your wording is more articulate. mine is more WORKING MAN !!

Let the play take you to your position, sometimes in, sometimes foul, and I also agree sometimes outside. Do not be a ROBOT, know the game and get to where you have the best angle for your calls without being in the way of the playing action. 3 man mechanics are great, do not be overwhelmed by everyone telling you that there is a perfect position all of the time. Sorry for the long post and I hope that I didn't hurt anyone's feelings. I did not do well in TIME OUT.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

Sorry for the long post and I hope that I didn't hurt anyone's feelings. I did not do well in TIME OUT.

The key will be whether you learned anything from the experience.

[EsqUmp]

Mechanics manuals are a set of compromises agreed upon by those who write and edit the manuals. Not all people seated around the table will agree upon each mechanic. As long as those who are evaluating stick with the manual and the philosophies behind the mechanics, umpires should be in good shape. A problem arises when UICs/evaluators/clinicians start to put their own unapproved twist on things based on their own preferences. I have spoken with countless umpires who return from clinics (primarily ASA or NCAA) with mechanics or techniques that not only aren't in the manual, but often contradict those that are.

As we have seen in NCAA over the last ten years or so, mechanics can become less rigid once a higher percentage of umpires are on the same page. In years past, manuals had a tendency to turn umpires into "spot umpires." Umpires would jump to a position like well-trained robots without giving thought as to why they would go there. The idea of pausing, reading the play and then reacting to the play was virtually non-existent. Though things have improved, there is certainly a long way to go. Still today, umpires will see a ball hit toward the outfield and start coming inside the diamond rather than reading the play and letting the ball take them to the play.

An example of an unnecessary button-hook (leaving alone rimming with no runners on base) is on fly balls to the outfield. Umpires drop their head, run inside and prepare to take the runner to the next base if the runner tags up. Here's the question I ask the umpires when I think they came inside needlessly: "What are the elements you are looking for on a tag-up situation?" The answer is always, "The runner." When I ask them, "What else?" they almost always say, "The base." Rarely does the umpire say, "The ball." Now, the umpire was always able to see the runner. The umpire was always able to see the base. The umpire could have seen the ball by opening up. What these overly-button-hooking umpires don't often see is the ball. How can you rule on a tag-up appeal if you don't see the ball? If you can't button-hook inside the diamond in time to see the ball as it arrives near the outfield, don't come inside. Just open up, face the ball and glance at the runners.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

An example of an unnecessary button-hook (leaving alone rimming with no runners on base) is on fly balls to the outfield. Umpires drop their head, run inside and prepare to take the runner to the next base if the runner tags up. Here's the question I ask the umpires when I think they came inside needlessly: "What are the elements you are looking for on a tag-up situation?" The answer is always, "The runner." When I ask them, "What else?" they almost always say, "The base." Rarely does the umpire say, "The ball." Now, the umpire was always able to see the runner. The umpire was always able to see the base. The umpire could have seen the ball by opening up. What these overly-button-hooking umpires don't often see is the ball. How can you rule on a tag-up appeal if you don't see the ball? If you can't button-hook inside the diamond in time to see the ball as it arrives near the outfield, don't come inside. Just open up, face the ball and glance at the runners.

Hmmm. I rarely have any problems button-hooking in on the tag-ups, and watching all the elements. But I do agree, for example, that as U1 and a runner at first only, it would be much easier to see the tag-up of R1 on a fly ball in left-center that U3 chases, if I stayed out and opened up.

The problem then, for some of us older types, is getting into position to watch the tag play at second should R1 advance. You're at a disadvantage starting from essentially foul territory.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I have never been, seen, heard or taken part in teaching anyone to go a spot. I don't see it anywhere in the ASA or ISF manual. Parameters, yes; Specific spot, no.

However, recently ASA have had NUS members lock on the DVD and like the mechanics at the schools and clinics, the DVDs were meant to be an aid, not the bible. Those folks are not helpful to anyone, the umpire or the UIC who has to work with that umpire.

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

An example of an unnecessary button-hook (leaving alone rimming with no runners on base) is on fly balls to the outfield. Umpires drop their head, run inside and prepare to take the runner to the next base if the runner tags up.

Again, don't know where you get this as I have never heard the suggestion of an umpire not watching the ball. Just because he is coming inside doesn't mean their head cannot turn to watch the ball.

Here's the question I ask the umpires when I think they came inside needlessly: "What are the elements you are looking for on a tag-up situation?" The answer is always, "The runner." When I ask them, "What else?" they almost always say, "The base." Rarely does the umpire say, "The ball." Now, the umpire was always able to see the runner. The umpire was always able to see the base. The umpire could have seen the ball by opening up. What these overly-button-hooking umpires don't often see is the ball. How can you rule on a tag-up appeal if you don't see the ball? If you can't button-hook inside the diamond in time to see the ball as it arrives near the outfield, don't come inside. Just open up, face the ball and glance at the runners.

IMO, staying outside provides the umpire with no better a look, just a bit less demanding. Then again, an umpire inside is in a better position to move to any number of position to make a call at any base necessary. AFA a tag up, yeah, I'm watching the ball and like being outside opening up to glance at the runner on the contact.

If the ball is on the ground, I don't care where the ball is until a fielder retrieves and returns it to the infield. That leaves me free to stay with the runners and defenders in the area with minimal effort.

Originally Posted by shagpal

Manny, a WCWS extols the virtue of ball status and is ASA. I'll let you guess which one or maybe all of them. Button hooking requires you purposefully lose ball status only to regain it again prior to repositioning.

No it doesn't.

If you (U3) are rotated and U1 chases caught, you are already at 2b. Watch tagup and wait for runner to come to you, be ahead of the runner. If dropped, stay at 2b for throw into 2b, or take several steps towards 1b ending up in the rotated B position outside to call a close one at 1b. The placement of the fly will likely hint at where the throw will go. PRR, pause, read and react.

How does that solve Manny's original concern involving the runner approaching 3B?

If you (U1) don't chase, take a couple of steps foul or simply open up to watch tagup at 1st.or dropped ball and the ensuing scramble. Your angle will be fine in foul to see it all. Be aware of first base coach.

If U3 chases, unless you (U1) will end up right in a throwing lane for a play at 2b, watch tag while opened up, then parallel runner into 2b while rimming outside. If you feel you will be squeezed, you can always default to pivoting inside (button hooking) since you already know how, but you will need to know ball status and prepitch your secondary calling position at 2b to determine you going inside.

PU comes inside the diamond and has a good look at the throwback to help at 1b if there is one since he will likely be trailing BR anyways if its close.

And who is covering the plate for the runner scoring from 2B? If there is a ball to the OF, the PU stays home.

This is all PPP, pre pitch planning. Thinking umpires. No longer are we told X marks the spot where you must go.

And if you ever received proper training, there never was. But then again, you are not interested in anything that doesn't fit your agenda.

You working 3-man which NCAA dominates. Be ahead of the runners if possible, let them come to you, and stay outa the way by button hooking as little as possible, unless you must when working ASA.

Consider that when working outside, you have far less worry about crossing running lanes to make you uncomfortable like you felt, and can concentrate more on throwing lanes, and all the while maintaining ball status to help you make those decisions.

If doing it right, and I assume we are talking about umpires who supposedly know what they are doing, an umpire should never worry about crossing a runner's path. If you do, you need to either put in a little more hustle in your giddy-up or just wait for the runner to pass and step in behind. It is not that big a deal.

And if you are inside, there is no additional concern about "throwing lanes", yet still have the ball, base, runners & defenders in front of you, and can adjust position and angles for any unanticipated plays with minimal effort.

[ASA Ump MN]

You paid for that vs getting paid, right?

We were paid for the games we worked in the tournament. This was the 2012 Slow Pitch advanced camp in Lincoln, Nebraska.