Obstruction Placement Federation only

[outathm]

After a game tonight I have a question about our placement of a runner.

No one on. Batter is obstructed rounding 1B and stops, then takes a step back toward first and then runs to second and is out by approx 4 feet.

After the play was done the U1 calls time and places the Batter-Runner on 1B.

On my way back to the plate the UIC for the tournament tells me that she has to be placed on second.

After we move the runner to second base the Defensive coach comes out and there is a discussion. As a crew we decided to move the runner back to 1b and continued with the game.

On the next pitch the runner was out at second on a steal attempt, tagged in almost exactly the same relation to the plate as the first time.

I am admittedly very unsure of the Fed rules, and I am curious if this was the right placement.

In the post game, involving 2 Commissioners, the committee Chair for my association, both associations involved rules interpreters, and a number of umpires, we agreed that either way could have been correct.

I will admit that when we went to place her on second I had recorded a 'Rounding obstruction' on the first base player earlier in the game out of habit from NCAA.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by outathm

After a game tonight I have a question about our placement of a runner.

No one on. Batter is obstructed rounding 1B and stops, then takes a step back toward first and then runs to second and is out by approx 4 feet.

After the play was done the U1 calls time and places the Batter-Runner on 1B.

On my way back to the plate the UIC for the tournament tells me that she has to be placed on second.

After we move the runner to second base the Defensive coach comes out and there is a discussion. As a crew we decided to move the runner back to 1b and continued with the game.

On the next pitch the runner was out at second on a steal attempt, tagged in almost exactly the same relation to the plate as the first time.

I am admittedly very unsure of the Fed rules, and I am curious if this was the right placement.

In the post game, involving 2 Commissioners, the committee Chair for my association, both associations involved rules interpreters, and a number of umpires, we agreed that either way could have been correct.

I will admit that when we went to place her on second I had recorded a 'Rounding obstruction' on the first base player earlier in the game out of habit from NCAA.

NFHS You award the OBS runner the base they would have gained safely had the OBS not occurred. I can find nothing requiring the OBS runner be advanced to the next base.

[RKBUmp]

Why is the UIC sticking their nose in your game?

When obstructed, the runner and any other runners affected by the obstruction are to be awarded the base or bases the umpire judges they would have reached absent the obstruction.

[outathm]

Thank you for 2 quick, NFHS only responses. I thought we had it right, as she would have never gotten to 2B. The offensive coach saw the obstruction and sent her hoping she would get put there.

The Defensive coach only argued that there was no obstruction; not likely since his first base person was on the bag like a mother hen.

I am sure that soon I will get all of the replies with the WSLGFSL and every other 'initial organization'.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

When obstructed, the runner and any other runners affected by the obstruction are to be awarded the base or bases the umpire judges they would have reached absent the obstruction.

So why wasn't the out here upheld?

In FED, a runner may not be put out in between the bases where the obstruction occurred. But wasn't this BR obstructed prior to reaching first base? After all, F3 was standing on the base, so I'm guessing the BR hesitated before getting to the base, or ran into F3 on the base.

The BR then went to second base on her own, and got thrown out. Unless the umpires judged she would have achieved second minus the obstruction, she should be out here, shouldn't she? There is no protection to return her to first base unless the obstruction occurred between first and second. And I'm not sure that's where the BR was obstructed.

Or am I in need of more coffee this morning?

[BretMan]

This runner was obstructed while rounding first base. Generally, when a runner is obstructed while rounding a base you can consider her to have been obstructed between that base and the next one.

If she's obstructed while rounding a base, as soon as she passes it won't she still be on an obstruced/altered path? If the obstruction is right at the base, it's virtually impossible for the runner's basepath to return to normal, as if the obstruction never occured, the instant that she passes the base.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Most consider a "rounding" obstruction to have hindered the runner both before and after the base. In other words, we should protect the runner throughout the act of obstruction, not just the location at the first instant of the obstruction.

I would assume protection between first and second unless it was specified only before the base. Coffee may help, of course.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So why wasn't the out here upheld?

In FED, a runner may not be put out in between the bases where the obstruction occurred. But wasn't this BR obstructed prior to reaching first base? After all, F3 was standing on the base, so I'm guessing the BR hesitated before getting to the base, or ran into F3 on the base.

The BR then went to second base on her own, and got thrown out. Unless the umpires judged she would have achieved second minus the obstruction, she should be out here, shouldn't she? There is no protection to return her to first base unless the obstruction occurred between first and second. And I'm not sure that's where the BR was obstructed.

Or am I in need of more coffee this morning?

A runner obstructed ON first base was also obstructed between first base and second base, and thus is still protected.

[CecilOne]

If "runs to second and is out by approx 4 feet" then 1st base, unless the judgment is that the OBS cost her 4 feet of running time.
The "stops, then takes a step back toward first and then runs" looks like she might have had time to beat the 4 feet on a continuous non-OBS run; especially if she was actually rounding and not just overrunning.
Probably not the case, especially with "she would have never gotten to 2B".

JUDGMENT, JUDGMENT, JUDGMENT.

Agree, an OBS at a base affects continuation, so protection after the base is correct.

.................................................. ........................
Is there any book in the soup that would be different?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Most consider a "rounding" obstruction to have hindered the runner both before and after the base. In other words, we should protect the runner throughout the act of obstruction, not just the location at the first instant of the obstruction.

That's an interesting perspective that I've never heard before. I certainly don't disagree with it. I would never think that your could "carry" an obstruction infraction before, on, and after the base.

But if that's the case, then why do we still hold a runner liable for missing a base that she was obstructed from touching? If she can't be put out at either base, shouldn't we ignore the base miss? I know the rules make this a requirement.

Suppose the BR in the OP misses first base because of F3's position, and reaches second safely. An appeal at first by the defense would be upheld. That goes against what she should be afforded since the obstruction as she rounds the base should protect her at first and second.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Is there any book in the soup that would be different?

NCAA, possibly. "Rounding" and/or "Returning" type obstructions get a warning (per player) on a first occurence; if this F3 had been warned previously, runner is awarded one forward base.

That said, it is almost NEVER called, even as a warning. No, that doesn't mean it isn't happening; if you look at that and nothing else, you will see it almost every play at every base. It is almost an art form, just slightly in the way enough to impede/hinder/be in her space, but not overtly enough for an umpire to make the call.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

That's an interesting perspective that I've never heard before. I certainly don't disagree with it.

That perspective is rather standard. Ask yourself ... was she obstructed between first and 2nd? Absolutely.

As to a missed base - the runner is allowed (required!) to retouch a missed base when her award is announced.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

That perspective is rather standard. Ask yourself ... was she obstructed between first and 2nd? Absolutely.

As to a missed base - the runner is allowed (required!) to retouch a missed base when her award is announced.

If the runner made second base safely, after missing first base, would there be a base to award? And if no base to award, how does the runner return to 1B to retouch it, assuming she actually realized it and wanted to?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

If the runner made second base safely, after missing first base, would there be a base to award? And if no base to award, how does the runner return to 1B to retouch it, assuming she actually realized it and wanted to?

Good point. I was under the impression that if the runner achieves the base she would have reached minus the obstruction, then there's no real reason for the umpire to call Time and make any formal announcement.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by outathm

Thank you for 2 quick, NFHS only responses. I thought we had it right, as she would have never gotten to 2B. The offensive coach saw the obstruction and sent her hoping she would get put there.

The Defensive coach only argued that there was no obstruction; not likely since his first base person was on the bag like a mother hen.

I am sure that soon I will get all of the replies with the WSLGFSL and every other 'initial organization'.

I began to think you had dropped off the forum, so good to see the OP.
Did you get an ASA National for this year yet?