Federation Softball obstruction

Mad4maddux · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 01, 2003, 08:22pm

I've umpired Little League baseball and softball for 10 years, but now I am experiencing Federation rules as my daughter begins her High School career.

What is the deal on the award of bases after an obstruction call? Runner was scrambling back to the base after the catcher snapped the throw to third, but the runner was obstructed by the third baseman.

Where I come from, when a play is made on the obstructed runner, she is awarded the next base (home) after the base last touched legally (3rd). The umpires said she gets the base, in their judgement, she would have reached had she not been obstructed.

Is this some weird High School rule? If so, how is the defense penalized really? They don't have anything to lose by "sneaky" obstruction, and they might actually get away with it and get the out!

Somebody please explain.

oppool · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 01, 2003, 09:57pm

I may be wrong but I believe LL rules are the only rules I am aware of that gave an advance base award for OBS. ASA which is the same as FED it is the umpire judgement to place the runner(s) on the base(s) they would have made it too if the OBS had not happen. The basic "penalty" is the defense loose the opportunity to put out the runner that was obstructed unless that runner advance past the base the umpire judges the runner would of made it too or on appeal for leaving early or missing a base or the runner later commits INT after being OBS

Hope this might help

Don

greymule · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 01, 2003, 10:30pm

Obstruction is handled differently by the various baseball and softball rules. I can't think of two that treat it exactly the same in every case. What you see called in Fed baseball may be totally different, for example, from what is called ASA softball or even OBR. Some recognize Type A and Type B obstruction; some do not; some don't define obstruction in those terms but give the concept quasi recognition anyway.

The fact that obstruction is a constant topic on these threads is an indication that it is often a tough call and a difficult matter to rule on. Even within a given set of rules, opinions differ on how to call certain plays.

Skahtboi · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 02, 2003, 01:57am

However, it seems to me that obstruction is treated in a fairly unified manner in ASA, USSSA, NFHS, and Dixie softball, which is the runner cannot be put out between the bases where he/she was obstructed. A runner cannot be awarded the next base if they do not make an attempt for that base, yet they are protected by the umpire to either the next base, if the attempt is made, or back to the base that they last occupied.

Scott

Tap · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 02, 2003, 06:30am

In USSSA slow pitch, technically the award is the next base, so if the runner is obstructed scrambling back to 3B the runner actually gets home: "The obstructed runner shall be awarded at least one base beyond the base he had last legally touched before the obstruction."

I'm not saying that it makes sense or that the offense would argue if the runner was put back on 3rd, but technically the award would be home.

IRISHMAFIA · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 02, 2003, 11:16am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad4maddux
I've umpired Little League baseball and softball for 10 years, but now I am experiencing Federation rules as my daughter begins her High School career.

What is the deal on the award of bases after an obstruction call? Runner was scrambling back to the base after the catcher snapped the throw to third, but the runner was obstructed by the third baseman.

Where I come from, when a play is made on the obstructed runner, she is awarded the next base (home) after the base last touched legally (3rd). The umpires said she gets the base, in their judgement, she would have reached had she not been obstructed.

Is this some weird High School rule? If so, how is the defense penalized really? They don't have anything to lose by "sneaky" obstruction, and they might actually get away with it and get the out!

Somebody please explain.

Many players and coaches are often not considered smart enough to gain that advantage

They would have a lot to lose with a good umpiring crew. I would simply rule the obstruction and then warn the coach that I noticed their little move (I have done this) and consider it an unsportsmanlike act. I will inform the coach the penalty for USC is the ejection of the offending player. And no, I don't care what level of play it is, or how many subs, if any, are available.

It is the rule ASA uses which NFHS adopted a year or two ago. In ASA, and now Fed, obstruction is a rule of protection, not penalty. It is the sole judgment of the umpire as to where to place the runner should obstruction occur. The umpires in your game were correct in stating that they should put the runner on the base which, in their judgment, the runner would have attained had the obstruction not occured.

greymule · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 02, 2003, 12:09pm

Tap: In USSSA, if a runner lines a hit to right field, takes a routine turn around 1B, and trips over F3 as F4 is catching F9's throw at 2B, does the runner automatically get 2B?

Tap · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 02, 2003, 05:13pm

First, let me note (many know this) that U-trip rules sometimes are vague and there are no POE and no case book to the best of my knowledge.

The technical answer to Greymule's is yes if the rule is applied literally, and that's unfortunate (as is the issue of the runner going back to 3rd).

I admit that -- in the initial example and in Greymules -- I would fudge and leave the runner at the prior base, a la ASA, and hope no one protests. It's clearly a "no harm, no foul" situation and I would leave the runner at the prior base in both situations. It's certainly a slippery slope to make those determinations (rule written poorly, so I'll interpret it in a way that makes sense), but that's what I would do.

greymule · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 02, 2003, 05:37pm

You would leave him at 1B in OBR as well, without fudging anything. It's Type B obstruction, since there was no play being made on him and he wasn't making a true attempt to go to 2B. But if there had been a play on him (say F9 threw behind him), or if the ump thought he was going to keep going toward 2B, he would be granted 2B.

I have never done LL and don't know whether they recognize Type A and B obstuction. Fed, however, does not, and in theory always gives the runner the next base. Don't expect to see it called on the play I described, though.

Tap · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 02, 2003, 08:13pm

Greymule, I actually MIGHT be able to get the "right" (i.e. fair) result in USSSA just using USSSA rules, but it's a stretch. The relevant portion of the definition of obstruction in USSSA states: "Obstruction is the act of a fielder while not in possession of the ball, or not in the act of fielding a batted ball, or taking a proper position to receive a thrown ball (thrown ball must already be in flight), which impedes the progress of a runner who is legally running the bases."

This USSSA rule is problematic for several reasons, not the least of which is the curious "ball in flight" part (it must be that this is necessary but not sufficient to avoid an obstruction call, as there clearly could be obstruction on a long throw from the OF even after it's been released; not that ASA's "about to recive the ball" is ultra clear either, but at the ASA National School we were given one yard as a reference point -- the ASA rule book's statement about the ball needing to be between the runner and fielder is not especially useful, especially if the runner and ball are not coming from the same direction; bottom line, that's a judgment call in any association and if the runner is clearly ahead of the ball by more than a yard the fielder cannot impede the runner's progress).

Perhaps the umpire could rule that the runner's "progress" was not impeded -- thus no obstruction in USSSA -- if the runner had no intention of trying for the next base (i.e. the runner was not trying to progress, but was happy where s/he was). The problem is that I may not know that when I stick my left arm out as the lazy/clueless F3 stands in the basepath as the B-R rounds 1B. I always like to get my arm up promptly per ASA training to show everyone that I saw the obstruction. But once that signal has been given, I cannot undo it. Bottom line is that the USSSA rule is poorly written and players, at least at the league level, do not expect an extra base if the runner definitely was not going to try for that next base and there was no play on the runner. The rule does need fixing.

[Edited by Tap on Mar 2nd, 2003 at 07:16 PM]

IRISHMAFIA · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 02, 2003, 08:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Tap

This USSSA rule is problematic for several reasons, not the least of which is the curious "ball in flight" part (it must be that this is necessary but not sufficient to avoid an obstruction call, as there clearly could be obstruction on a long throw from the OF even after it's been released; not that ASA's "about to recive the ball" is ultra clear either, but at the ASA National School we were given one yard as a reference point -- the ASA rule book's statement about the ball needing to be between the runner and fielder is not especially useful, especially if the runner and ball are not coming from the same direction; bottom line, that's a judgment call in any association and if the runner is clearly ahead of the ball by more than a yard the fielder cannot impede the runner's progress).

[Edited by Tap on Mar 2nd, 2003 at 07:16 PM]

Tap,

This sounds more like a baseball rule than softball. The only problem I have on a close one is if the umpire is watching the obstruction, how do they know the ball was or wasn't in flight unless it is in direct line with their view of the runner?

BTW, I've never had a problem with the "about to receive the ball" or "ball between the runner and fielder" statements. I admit the wording can be confusing if taken in a literal sense, but you need to look at it in an absolute sense. Anytime a thrown ball gets to the defender before the runner, you cannot have obstruction. If the runner gets there first, 99% of the time, obstruction is the call. I think people try to read too much into the wording.

Skahtboi · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 02, 2003, 11:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Tap
In USSSA slow pitch, technically the award is the next base, so if the runner is obstructed scrambling back to 3B the runner actually gets home: "The obstructed runner shall be awarded at least one base beyond the base he had last legally touched before the obstruction."

I'm not saying that it makes sense or that the offense would argue if the runner was put back on 3rd, but technically the award would be home.

Not in USSSA Fast Pitch! 9:14 reads a lot like NFHS or ASA, and it says:

When a runner is obstructed while advancing or returning to a base, by a fielder who neither has the ball or is about to field a batted ball, the umpire shall award the obstructed runnner, and each other affected by the obstruction, the bases they would have reached, in the umpire's judgement, had there been no obstruction.

As you can tell, the wording is very similar to the other organizations that I have mentioned. So, as you can see by this, in USSSA Fastpitch, the situation that Greymule posed would be treated just like it would in ASA or Fed. In other words, if the runner returned to 1B without making any attempt toward 2B, he/she would only get 1B.

Scott

Dakota · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 03, 2003, 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad4maddux
Is this some weird High School rule?

As you can tell by now, no it isn't just a weird HS rule.

Quote:

If so, how is the defense penalized really?

They aren't. Obstruction under these rules is an infraction without an penalty.

Quote:

They don't have anything to lose by "sneaky" obstruction, and they might actually get away with it and get the out!

Correct.

Mike's perspective is different from mine. I deal mostly with JO ASA fastpitch, with a little bit of NFHS rules occasionally. In other words, teenage girls and mostly Dad coaches. When I see this kind of defensive behavior, I believe it is almost always coached at this age level.

I deal with it similarly to Mike, except at this age level, I don't bother to warn the coach unless a warning to the player doesn't work. I just inform the player she is commiting obstruction, which is against the rules. They usually stop.

However, it is becoming so common, that I think ASA / NFHS should put more teeth behind the rule. This would perhaps make the penalty "not worth it" to try to slip this stuff by the umpires.

CecilOne · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 05, 2003, 08:26am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dakota
... snip ...

Quote:

If so, how is the defense penalized really?
They aren't. Obstruction under these rules is an infraction without an penalty.

Not quite. As someone said above, the defense loses the "out".
... snip ...

SamNVa · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 05, 2003, 08:56am

CecilOne,

I think what Tom (Dakota) is referring to is the fact that the defense can obstruct tunners, especially on pickoff plays in the hope of getting an out from an umpire who is reluctant to call obstruction in those cases. In reality, the defense has risked nothing because they most likely would not have gotten the runner out if they had not obstructed her, and they can potentially gain an out, so effectively there is no penalty for the defense's illegal act. That is why I like the LL rule in this situation which awards the runner an additional base.

SamC