Another one

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

So if there is no danger initially, there is no need to necessarily call her out. But once the defense gets the ball and is going to make a play, would you call her out at this point?

The idea of the rule is to protect the player, not a gotcha or free out. ASA instructs their umpire directly from the rule to use discretion as to the intent of player safety.

If there is no play being made anywhere, I'm not worried about it. If the defense does begin to make a play by throwing the ball, then yes, I will enforce the rule and call the player out.

In the OP, this was believed to be the final out of that half-inning, so I'm guessing the ball is on the ground the most of the defense is in or near their dugout, unless the OP tells me differently.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The idea of the rule is to protect the player, not a gotcha or free out. ASA instructs their umpire directly from the rule to use discretion as to the intent of player safety.

If there is no play being made anywhere, I'm not worried about it. If the defense does begin to make a play by throwing the ball, then yes, I will enforce the rule and call the player out.

In the OP, this was believed to be the final out of that half-inning, so I'm guessing the ball is on the ground the most of the defense is in or near their dugout, unless the OP tells me differently.

I agree with that. This is one of the few rules that has the "intent" built into it. No doubt because umpires were making egregious calls on the field. I saw an umpire call a batter out on an over-the-fence homerun. She took it off and flipped it up in the air right before she hit home plate. Ridiculous.

[MD Longhorn]

I get not worrying about the discarded helmet... however ...

One point asked and not addressed mentioned her receiving her glove and heading to her position. To me, this is clearly a player no longer running the bases, and she should be out at this point. If you don't call her out ... what happens if she happens to be F3, and heads to her position, stepping on first base. Are you going to stop everything down and rule her a legal runner on first base now?

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I get not worrying about the discarded helmet... however ...

One point asked and not addressed mentioned her receiving her glove and heading to her position. To me, this is clearly a player no longer running the bases, and she should be out at this point.

Speaking NFHS, what rule would you apply?

Other than the traditional tag the batter out or throw her out at first, there are only three ways to get that out:
1) She enters dead ball territory.
2) She does not reach first base prior to the next pitch.
3) She does not reach first base prior to all infielders leaving the diamond.

If none of these occur (although I would think #3 would have occured), how do you call her out? Purposely removing her helmet is not an out and just a team warning or dugout restriction on second offense. I supposed you could make a case for interference when a team mates comes out on to the field, but that would be for interference and not for the action of the batter.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Speaking NFHS, what rule would you apply?

Other than the traditional tag the batter out or throw her out at first, there are only three ways to get that out:
1) She enters dead ball territory.
2) She does not reach first base prior to the next pitch.
3) She does not reach first base prior to all infielders leaving the diamond.

Not sure where you're getting your 3 here, and the accompanying assertion that these MUST be the only 3 ways an out can occur.

Essentially, in either code, for a BR who doesn't know she's a BR and stops trying to advance to first, we're talking about abandonment. I'm not a big abandonment guy, and I know several umpires like to use that FAR too quickly and FAR too aggressively. However, in THIS case - I believe it applies. And if a teammate tosses the BR her glove so that she can go play a position - that's a pretty clear indication to me of a player who has abandoned her wish to advance to a particular base.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Not sure where you're getting your 3 here, and the accompanying assertion that these MUST be the only 3 ways an out can occur.

Essentially, in either code, for a BR who doesn't know she's a BR and stops trying to advance to first, we're talking about abandonment. I'm not a big abandonment guy, and I know several umpires like to use that FAR too quickly and FAR too aggressively. However, in THIS case - I believe it applies. And if a teammate tosses the BR her glove so that she can go play a position - that's a pretty clear indication to me of a player who has abandoned her wish to advance to a particular base.

NFHS Casebook 8.1.1 Situation A for the three ways.

This is not abandonment. Check 8-6-19:

A runner is out when...she abandons a base by entering dead-ball territory.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

I supposed you could make a case for interference when a team mates comes out on to the field, but that would be for interference and not for the action of the batter.

No you really couldn't. After all, what are the teammates interfering with? Who are they hindering? What play is taking place?

More than likely, your #3 is what would happen. I can't imagine an infielder staying in fair territory while the BR goes over to her dugout, discards her helmet, and is handed her glove. If, by some chance, there is still an infielder in fair territory, and the BR makes it to first base with her helmet off and her glove on, I suppose the rules leave us no choice but to say she's still a viable runner.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by Manny A

No you really couldn't. After all, what are the teammates interfering with? Who are they hindering? What play is taking place?

Definitely a "have to see it" kind of situation. Team mate could push or pull the batter-runner toward first base, or perhaps, as written in 8-16-6d:

The runner is out when...any coach or member of the offensive team, other than a runner, interferes with a defensive player's opportunity to make a play. This includes, but is not limited to...member(s) of the offensive team stand or collect around a base to which a runner is advancing, thereby confusing the fielders and adding to the difficulty of making the play. Members of a team include bat/ball shaggers or any other person authorized to sit on the team's bench.

But either one is still a have-to-see-it situation.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Hey, Andy, want to know what I think is funny? The way people are trying to mold a rule to fit what is perceived as a violation.

Not that there isn't possibly an issue, but the "what ifs" are funny.