The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 20, 2013, 09:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,204
Another one

Here is the situation.

2 out, 3-2 count on B3. B3 swings and misses, F3 drops the pitch. B3 makes no attempt to run to first, and starts walking toward the first base dugout.

The question is at what point do you call her out.

This was a discussion on another board.

Personally, as long as she is moving, I'm not calling her out until she does something else to prove she has no intention of advancing, such as entering dead ball territory.

What do other umpires use as a guide for making a decision on this.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 20, 2013, 09:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,340
Until she steps foot into dead ball territory, is tagged out or put out at first, she is not out.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 20, 2013, 09:25pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 318
Once she enters the "team area ", ie dugout, she's out.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 20, 2013, 10:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by topper View Post
Once she enters the "team area ", ie dugout, she's out.
I completely agree. Now, what do you do in this situation. She walks back toward the dugout, tosses her bat and helmet into the team area, and a team mate brings out her glove to her? She never actually goes into dead ball territory.

I only bring this up, because I heard about it happening recently.

Personally, at the point she has completely given up the idea of going to first, such as ditching the offensive equipment, at that point I'm calling her out, even if she does not go into dead ball territory. Then you also have the issue of taking off a batting helmet in live ball territory during a live ball situation.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 21, 2013, 05:07am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 414
I have no trouble with calling her out at that point either.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 21, 2013, 06:21am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,560
Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
I completely agree. Now, what do you do in this situation. She walks back toward the dugout, tosses her bat and helmet into the team area, and a team mate brings out her glove to her? She never actually goes into dead ball territory.

I only bring this up, because I heard about it happening recently.

Personally, at the point she has completely given up the idea of going to first, such as ditching the offensive equipment, at that point I'm calling her out, even if she does not go into dead ball territory. Then you also have the issue of taking off a batting helmet in live ball territory during a live ball situation.
Speaking ASA, the BR is still a BR and capable of advancing to the base. Really don't care if the umpire "thinks" the runner has given up anything, that is not part of the rule. AFA the helmet, since this scenario makes it clear there is no obvious play, the player is in no danger.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 21, 2013, 06:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NY
Posts: 763
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Speaking ASA, the BR is still a BR and capable of advancing to the base. Really don't care if the umpire "thinks" the runner has given up anything, that is not part of the rule. AFA the helmet, since this scenario makes it clear there is no obvious play, the player is in no danger.
So if there is no danger initially, there is no need to necessarily call her out. But once the defense gets the ball and is going to make a play, would you call her out at this point?
__________________
Kill the Clones. Let God sort them out.
No one likes an OOJ (Over-officious jerk).
Realistic officiating does the sport good.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 21, 2013, 08:42am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
I completely agree. Now, what do you do in this situation. She walks back toward the dugout, tosses her bat and helmet into the team area, and a team mate brings out her glove to her? She never actually goes into dead ball territory.

I only bring this up, because I heard about it happening recently.

Personally, at the point she has completely given up the idea of going to first, such as ditching the offensive equipment, at that point I'm calling her out, even if she does not go into dead ball territory. Then you also have the issue of taking off a batting helmet in live ball territory during a live ball situation.
Speaking NFHS, the batter would be declared out once the half-inning ended because all infielders left the diamond. See Casebook 8.1.1 Situation A.
__________________
"Not all heroes have time to pose for sculptors...some still have papers to grade."
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 21, 2013, 12:00pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,560
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsqUmp View Post
So if there is no danger initially, there is no need to necessarily call her out. But once the defense gets the ball and is going to make a play, would you call her out at this point?
The idea of the rule is to protect the player, not a gotcha or free out. ASA instructs their umpire directly from the rule to use discretion as to the intent of player safety.

If there is no play being made anywhere, I'm not worried about it. If the defense does begin to make a play by throwing the ball, then yes, I will enforce the rule and call the player out.

In the OP, this was believed to be the final out of that half-inning, so I'm guessing the ball is on the ground the most of the defense is in or near their dugout, unless the OP tells me differently.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 21, 2013, 12:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,560
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoBits View Post
Speaking NFHS, the batter would be declared out once the half-inning ended because all infielders left the diamond. See Casebook 8.1.1 Situation A.
So, the moral of the story is that all infielders should sprint into foul territory if the 3rd out is a strike out, just in case.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 21, 2013, 12:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
So, the moral of the story is that all infielders should sprint into foul territory if the 3rd out is a strike out, just in case.
A whole team of girls sprint off the field? Good luck with that!
__________________
"Not all heroes have time to pose for sculptors...some still have papers to grade."
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 22, 2013, 06:35am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NY
Posts: 763
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
The idea of the rule is to protect the player, not a gotcha or free out. ASA instructs their umpire directly from the rule to use discretion as to the intent of player safety.

If there is no play being made anywhere, I'm not worried about it. If the defense does begin to make a play by throwing the ball, then yes, I will enforce the rule and call the player out.

In the OP, this was believed to be the final out of that half-inning, so I'm guessing the ball is on the ground the most of the defense is in or near their dugout, unless the OP tells me differently.
I agree with that. This is one of the few rules that has the "intent" built into it. No doubt because umpires were making egregious calls on the field. I saw an umpire call a batter out on an over-the-fence homerun. She took it off and flipped it up in the air right before she hit home plate. Ridiculous.
__________________
Kill the Clones. Let God sort them out.
No one likes an OOJ (Over-officious jerk).
Realistic officiating does the sport good.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 22, 2013, 09:34am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
I get not worrying about the discarded helmet... however ...

One point asked and not addressed mentioned her receiving her glove and heading to her position. To me, this is clearly a player no longer running the bases, and she should be out at this point. If you don't call her out ... what happens if she happens to be F3, and heads to her position, stepping on first base. Are you going to stop everything down and rule her a legal runner on first base now?
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 22, 2013, 10:11am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
I get not worrying about the discarded helmet... however ...

One point asked and not addressed mentioned her receiving her glove and heading to her position. To me, this is clearly a player no longer running the bases, and she should be out at this point.
Speaking NFHS, what rule would you apply?

Other than the traditional tag the batter out or throw her out at first, there are only three ways to get that out:
1) She enters dead ball territory.
2) She does not reach first base prior to the next pitch.
3) She does not reach first base prior to all infielders leaving the diamond.

If none of these occur (although I would think #3 would have occured), how do you call her out? Purposely removing her helmet is not an out and just a team warning or dugout restriction on second offense. I supposed you could make a case for interference when a team mates comes out on to the field, but that would be for interference and not for the action of the batter.
__________________
"Not all heroes have time to pose for sculptors...some still have papers to grade."
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 22, 2013, 11:09am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoBits View Post
Speaking NFHS, what rule would you apply?

Other than the traditional tag the batter out or throw her out at first, there are only three ways to get that out:
1) She enters dead ball territory.
2) She does not reach first base prior to the next pitch.
3) She does not reach first base prior to all infielders leaving the diamond.
Not sure where you're getting your 3 here, and the accompanying assertion that these MUST be the only 3 ways an out can occur.

Essentially, in either code, for a BR who doesn't know she's a BR and stops trying to advance to first, we're talking about abandonment. I'm not a big abandonment guy, and I know several umpires like to use that FAR too quickly and FAR too aggressively. However, in THIS case - I believe it applies. And if a teammate tosses the BR her glove so that she can go play a position - that's a pretty clear indication to me of a player who has abandoned her wish to advance to a particular base.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:06pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1