Abandonment?

[oldadmark]

BR to 1st base and touches legally. Turns and thinks she's out. Starts moving back down the baseline toward home plate and her dugout. Tagged by 1st base player. Out? Safe? Is she even liable to be tagged out before she enters the dugout? When does abandonment begin?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by oldadmark

BR to 1st base and touches legally. Turns and thinks she's out. Starts moving back down the baseline toward home plate and her dugout. Tagged by 1st base player. Out? Safe? Is she even liable to be tagged out before she enters the dugout? When does abandonment begin?

speaking ASA, abandonment begins when the player enters DBT.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by oldadmark

BR to 1st base and touches legally. Turns and thinks she's out. Starts moving back down the baseline toward home plate and her dugout. Tagged by 1st base player. Out? Safe? Is she even liable to be tagged out before she enters the dugout? When does abandonment begin?

Three rule sets, three different rules/interpretations.

NCAA; once she "Starts moving back down the baseline toward home plate and her dugout", out then. BLACK

ASA; out when she abandons AND enters dead ball territory. So has not abandoned, until she enters dead ball territory. WHITE

NFHS; runner out when she abandons OR enters dead ball territory. Your call, your judgment. GRAY


That said, in YOUR play, any runner is out when tagged off the base when the ball is live regardless what ruleset used.

[Manny A]

Follow-up question: I realize that BRs, by definition, are not "forced" to first base. Given that a runner who is forced to a base, touches that base, and then for whatever reason retreats back towards her previous base reinstates the force to the next base, is the same interpretation given at first on the BR?

IOW, in the OP play, could F3 simply tag first base to put the BR out?

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Follow-up question: I realize that BRs, by definition, are not "forced" to first base. Given that a runner who is forced to a base, touches that base, and then for whatever reason retreats back towards her previous base reinstates the force to the next base, is the same interpretation given at first on the BR?

IOW, in the OP play, could F3 simply tag first base to put the BR out?

I brought this very question up to KR and the other Natl Staff members at the FP Advanced Camp last summer, because there is really no specific rule in ASA that covers the B/R and reinstating at 1st base. KR, after much debate did agree that 'we need to clarify this and put it in the book', but any change was not purposed last fall at Council.

So based on the current rule set, there is nothing in the book that was reinstate 'the force' for the B/R at 1st base. That still only applies to other runners forced to vacate because the Batter became a B/R. The B/R still needs to be tagged while off the base or he/she enter DBT to have an out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by okla21fan

I brought this very question up to KR and the other Natl Staff members at the FP Advanced Camp last summer, because there is really no specific rule in ASA that covers the B/R and reinstating at 1st base. KR, after much debate did agree that 'we need to clarify this and put it in the book', but any change was not purposed last fall at Council.

So based on the current rule set, there is nothing in the book that was reinstate 'the force' for the B/R at 1st base. That still only applies to other runners forced to vacate because the Batter became a B/R. The B/R still needs to be tagged while off the base or he/she enter DBT to have an out.

It is already covered in 8.8.I

The runner (noted as a BR since that player is the only one permitted to overrun the base without being placed in jeopardy) must return directly to 1B to not be out. Going past that base and/or in a direction that cannot be construed as "on route" to 1B, places the runner in jeopardy, but must be tagged off the base. Simply touching the base means nothing as there is nothing appealable for the runner simply being off the base.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Simply touching the base means nothing as there is nothing appealable for the runner simply being off the base.

But it wouldn't be an appeal if the "force" is reinstated on her if she heads back towards home and is between home and first, would it? Or are you suggesting that tags of the base when other runners reinstate the force are required to be announced as live ball appeals?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by oldadmark

BR to 1st base and touches legally. Turns and thinks she's out. Starts moving back down the baseline toward home plate and her dugout. Tagged by 1st base player. Out? Safe? Is she even liable to be tagged out before she enters the dugout? When does abandonment begin?

When you say "toward home plate", do you mean beyond 1st base, or between 1st base and home plate. If the former - she's not out, she's merely returning to 1st after legally over-running it (albeit meanderingly). If the latter, see Atl's response.

And I would not have abandonment here in FED ... not yet. Abandonment is not a GOTCHA call ... it's a fall-back to use when runners truly do leave.