Projected Sub...

[DaveASA/FED]

My previous reply was based on NFHS rules. I guess ASA makes this much more clear. Their rule 4-6-B spells it out.
B. A substitute shall be considered officially in the game when reported to the
plate umpire. The player does not violate the unreported substituted rule until
a pitch, legal or illegal, or a play has been made. The use of an unreported
substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is
in the game.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

My previous reply was based on NFHS rules. I guess ASA makes this much more clear. Their rule 4-6-B spells it out.
B. A substitute shall be considered officially in the game when reported to the
plate umpire. The player does not violate the unreported substituted rule until
a pitch, legal or illegal, or a play has been made. The use of an unreported
substitute is handled as a protest by the offended team while the player is
in the game.

But look at 4-6-A, Dave. I don't have a recent version of the rulebook here at work. I have an electronic version of the 2008 book. And in 4-6-A, it says [my emphasis in bold]:

"The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters. The plate umpire shall then report the change to the scorer."

So while it doesn't specifically say projected substitutes are not allowed, it does say when the manager or team rep should tell the plate ump. I'm assuming the latest rule has not changed in its intent.

To answer your previous question about DP/Flex, I don't know what was put out under some previous clarification. But to me, if the coach announces at the plate conference that his Flex is going to bat for his DP, the umpire shouldn't take that announcement, by rule, until the DP is due to bat.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by Manny A

But look at 4-6-A, Dave. I don't have a recent version of the rulebook here at work. I have an electronic version of the 2008 book. And in 4-6-A, it says [my emphasis in bold]:

"The manager or team representative of the team making the substitution shall notify the plate umpire at the time the substitute enters. The plate umpire shall then report the change to the scorer."

I guess we are just seeing two different things here. I agree A still says what you quoted. However, I read that simply as "When the coach wants the player to enter the game they tell the plate umpire (4-6-A) Once that is done they are officially in the game (4-6-B)." I don't read or see anything else there. Tell me when you want them in the game and it's done they are in the game at that point.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I guess we are just seeing two different things here. I agree A still says what you quoted. However, I read that simply as "When the coach wants the player to enter the game they tell the plate umpire (4-6-A) Once that is done they are officially in the game (4-6-B)." I don't read or see anything else there. Tell me when you want them in the game and it's done they are in the game at that point.

So, it's your position that when the coach comes to you and says, "Blue, I want substitute Suzie to bat for starter Stacey when Stacey comes up this inning," Suzie is now officially in the game. And you're going to announce that to the opposing coach and the official scorer.

But then Suzie, who was due to bat seventh in the inning, never comes anywhere near the plate. So when the coach says, "Blue, I'm putting Stacey back on the field, and since Suzie never batted for her, it's not a re-entry, right?" you're going to tell the coach that Suzie WAS in the game, even though she never got an official appearance, and that Stacey burned her one re-entry. Is that correct?

Well, I'll never let that happen.

[MD Longhorn]

Honestly - both of these viewpoints can be right. Given that ASA didn't bother to define "projected sub" - going back and forth is rather worthless.

As long as we are self-consistent during a game, either way should not have problems.

Method A - To my mind, a person doesn't enter the game until she actually begins to participate and the person she's replacing is no longer participating. On defense, this is easy and we don't seem to have any disagreement. On offense, TO ME, that means - when they are about to come to bat. If this is your viewpoint, and you A) don't write anything down until it becomes official and B) notify the opposing coach and the scorekeeper of the change at this moment (and not earlier), you will not run into problems.

Method B - Conversely - if you go with Dave's way (which is also Irish's way from a previous thread), and accept any changes to the batting lineup in advance of the inning started, then as long as you A) write them ALL down when the coach gives them to you, B) inform the opposing coach and scorekeeper of ALL the changes when you write them down ... then again, you will not run into any problems. (Probably should inform the coach making the changes that they are official as of that moment too, just in case the below cases happen)

The only real difference lies in the two cases mentioned above:
1) Coach says Suzie is coming in for Sally to bat, but Sally's AB never comes - with method A, Suzie has still not entered the game, and Sally has not left... with method B, Suzie's already in the game, and Sally is not.
2) Coach says Suzie is coming in for Sally (batting later than Beth), but Beth gets injured during her at bat and coach now wants to put in Suzie for Beth... method A - no problem, coach; method B - No coach, Suzie's already in the game.

I think you run into no coaching issues in either of those cases with Method A - and you could with Method B. But again, as long as we are self-consistent and communicating with the coaches, we can justify (by rule) either method.