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Old Mon Oct 08, 2012, 10:51pm
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NYY v BO

Anybody else think this runner should have been called out for a basepath violation on this play?
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 04:19am
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Anybody else think this runner should have been called out for a basepath violation on this play?
I probably would have had an out. Looked at least like six feet or so to avoid the tag. But he is a Yankee.

Joel
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 04:49am
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Originally Posted by Gulf Coast Blue View Post
I probably would have had an out. Looked at least like six feet or so to avoid the tag. But he is a Yankee.
I'm no Yankees fan, but I don't have a violation here. Ichiro was already in the grass well off the line between third and home when Wieters started to turn with the ball (stop the video at 21 seconds to see). He did twist a little further away to avoid the tag, but it wasn't an additional three feet from his path prior to the tag.

It just looked like a violation because of how far behind home plate Ichiro ended up when he passed it. But he was already to the right of the foul line a good distance as he approached.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 04:53am
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
I'm no Yankees fan, but I don't have a violation here. Ichiro was already in the grass well off the line between third and home when Wieters started to turn with the ball (stop the video at 21 seconds to see). He did twist a little further away to avoid the tag, but it wasn't an additional three feet from his path prior to the tag.

It just looked like a violation because of how far behind home plate Ichiro ended up when he passed it. But he was already to the right of the foul line a good distance as he approached.
Ok......I have watched the video about 20 more times and will have to change my original answer. At the moment of the original tag attempt......it DOES NOT appear that Ichiro violated any baserunning rules. I also have to give the HP umpire credit for having the exact correct positioning for this play.



Joel

Last edited by Gulf Coast Blue; Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 04:56am.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 06:25am
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Not even close. At the time of the tag, he took one step away with his left foot and almost all of his momentum was forward. Hard to come up with 3 feet there.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 06:35am
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
I'm no Yankees fan, but I don't have a violation here. Ichiro was already in the grass well off the line between third and home when Wieters started to turn with the ball (stop the video at 21 seconds to see). He did twist a little further away to avoid the tag, but it wasn't an additional three feet from his path prior to the tag.

It just looked like a violation because of how far behind home plate Ichiro ended up when he passed it. But he was already to the right of the foul line a good distance as he approached.
Being on the grass is irrelevant. Watch the entire clip and see where his feet are when the catcher begins his attempt. (0:11 & 0:21) At that point, the base path is established as a straight line from the runner to the plate which seems to run right through the outside front corner of the BB. Now, how long is the BB in baseball?

IMO, he is out of the BP, but this is the MLB and sometimes it seems what is real and what is an ESPN clip are two different things
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 07:30am
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Being on the grass is irrelevant. Watch the entire clip and see where his feet are when the catcher begins his attempt. (0:11 & 0:21) At that point, the base path is established as a straight line from the runner to the plate which seems to run right through the outside front corner of the BB. Now, how long is the BB in baseball?
So, by your explanation, the runner would have been out even if he had not twisted to avoid the tag because by continuing parallel with the foul line, he would have already gone more than three feet from a line between him and the plate.

That's a tough sell. It's unreasonable to me to expect the runner to turn on a dime like that to go to home, given his direction and momentum. He would have to move more than 45-degrees towards the plate and into the tag.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 08:30am
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Correct me if I'm Wrong

but, doesn't the rule book say (and I don't have one in front of me) that once a tag is attempted the runner must stay in the basepath in a direct line from where he is at the time of the tag all the way to the base? I think based on that I'd have to call him out.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 08:56am
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but, doesn't the rule book say (and I don't have one in front of me) that once a tag is attempted the runner must stay in the basepath in a direct line from where he is at the time of the tag all the way to the base? I think based on that I'd have to call him out.
This is true until the tag attempt is over. It's no longer a tag attempt once the original one is missed and the catcher is on his hands and knees after missing the original tag.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 09:07am
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Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto View Post
but, doesn't the rule book say (and I don't have one in front of me) that once a tag is attempted the runner must stay in the basepath in a direct line from where he is at the time of the tag all the way to the base? I think based on that I'd have to call him out.
It says he has to remain within 3 feet of that line. I think there's no question that he does and it's not even close.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 09:08am
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This is true until the tag attempt is over. It's no longer a tag attempt once the original one is missed and the catcher is on his hands and knees after missing the original tag.
Agree. At the moment the tag was attempted, Ichiro twisted his body to avoid, and the twist did not take him more than three feet from the line between him and home.

If Wieters was chasing Ichiro from behind, then he would have been in violation. But because the tag attempt was virtually instantaneous, Ichiro would have had to take a quick right turn from the point of the tag to violate the rule.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 10:17am
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Could there have been an appeal for a missed base?

Suppose the O's catcher tags the plate while making some motion/indication that he is (live ball) appealing a missed base. Would you have an out?

And no, I'm not asking about the "accidental appeal" of touching the plate while trying to tag the runner (which almost happened).
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 10:41am
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Suppose the O's catcher tags the plate while making some motion/indication that he is (live ball) appealing a missed base. Would you have an out?
In baseball, No. An appeal like that is not allowed if the runner is immediately trying to return to the base. When that happens, the fielder must tag the runner to record the out. An appeal would only be valid if the runner is making no attempt to return to the plate after he misses it.

Is it different in softball?
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 11:03am
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In baseball, No. An appeal like that is not allowed if the runner is immediately trying to return to the base. When that happens, the fielder must tag the runner to record the out. An appeal would only be valid if the runner is making no attempt to return to the plate after he misses it.

Is it different in softball?
I would consider this a live ball appeal of missing a base, just like missing first base. However, the catcher would have to give an indication that he is appealing the missed base, not just merely touching the plate (the 'accidental appeal'). But I would give some leeway as to what constitutes an indication.

That would be a great heads up play, but then again, they are catcher's for a reason.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2012, 11:25am
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I would consider this a live ball appeal of missing a base, just like missing first base. However, the catcher would have to give an indication that he is appealing the missed base, not just merely touching the plate (the 'accidental appeal'). But I would give some leeway as to what constitutes an indication.

That would be a great heads up play, but then again, they are catcher's for a reason.
Again, it is NOT possible, under pro baseball rules, to appeal a miss of the plate under these circumstances. After Ichiro avoided the tag and missed the plate, he immediately attempted to return to touch it. If Wieters had tagged the plate and given some indication to appeal as you state, the PU would not have acknowledged the appeal.

I don't have access to my softball rules right now, so I'm soliciting a rule citation under ASA, NFHS, and/or NCAA that would support your claim.
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