Need Help On Rule

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

It depends. If the impetus which caused the ball to leave playable territory was that of the batted ball deflecting off the player, it is a GRD, as previously noted.

If the player's kick was the impetus which propelled the ball out of play, it is two bases from the runners' location at the time of the kick.

July 2009 ASA Rules Clarifications:

PLAY: With no outs and R1 on 2B, B2 hits a line drive to F7. R1 is off on the hit and headed toward 3B when F7 misses the sinking line drive and knocks the ball forward on the ground in front of him. While running in and trying to scoop up the ball, F7 kicks the ball into the 3B dugout. When the ball entered the 3B dugout, R1 is two steps from 3B and B2 is not yet to 1B. Which bases should R1 and B2 be awarded?

RULING: R1 is awarded home and B2 is awarded 2B. The ball being kicked into dead ball territory would be treated the same as if F7 threw the ball into dead ball territory. Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot. (Rule 8, Section 5G)

Mike, that play doesn't really differentiate well - as the runners are getting 2 bases from TOP, and also 2 bases from TOK (time of kick? ). Since neither runner had advanced a base, the bases at TOP and TOK are the same.

Incidentally, 8-5G refers to live overthrown balls and blocked balls... where is the rule that tells us to treat an unintentionally kicked ball as a thrown ball?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Mike, that play doesn't really differentiate well - as the runners are getting 2 bases from TOP, and also 2 bases from TOK (time of kick? ). Since neither runner had advanced a base, the bases at TOP and TOK are the same.

Your point?

Incidentally, 8-5G refers to live overthrown balls and blocked balls... where is the rule that tells us to treat an unintentionally kicked ball as a thrown ball?

Where is the rule saying the runner has to go to 1st, 2nd, 3rd and then home in order to score a run? Then tell me where the rule is that tells us what a legal slide or errant throw is?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Incidentally, 8-5G refers to live overthrown balls and blocked balls... where is the rule that tells us to treat an unintentionally kicked ball as a thrown ball?

As I mentioned, there is no rule that specifically covers this. The July 2009 ASA Rule Clarification tells us to use 8-5G. Unless something has since come out that supercedes that clarification, that's what we have to go with.

[cal9323]

So I guess I was right after all.
Thanks for the clarification.

[Andy]

I wasn't there and didn't see the play, I read the OP and thought, batted ball deflected by fielder into dead ball territory. Two bases from time of pitch.

The original poster has changed and added to the scenario since that point and doesn't seem top grasp the concept of "intentional" as related to judging player actions.

And remember....his team lost the game...all because of this call.....

[ASA Ump MN]

I can't imagine anyone trying to intentionaly kick a ball under a fence in that or any scenario.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I find it amazing that after the discussion and evidence presented, there is still argument.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I find it amazing that after the discussion and evidence presented, there is still argument.

Agreed. As the line goes in a memorable movie, "You're KILLING me, Smalls!"

Colleagues, are you just blowing off the ASA Rule Clarification that OKC provided in July 2009 and Irish quoted?! They offered a case play that unequivocally tells us that the ruling is to award two bases from the time of the kick, not the time of the pitch.

This is NOT a deflected ball. A deflected ball is one that has significant momentum that, after it ricochets off a fielder, umpire, runner, base, whatever, the ball's redirected momentum takes it into DBT. It's pretty easy to determine when a ball has deflected off something, and not pushed or kicked or thrown out of play.

Think of the bat-hits-ball versus the ball-hits-bat a second time scenario. When a moving bat hits the ball, it's ruled one way. When the ball hits a stationary bat, it's another ruling. A deflected ball versus a ball provided added impetus is similar.

Regardless how you want to define a ball that has been deflected, the ruling for the OP is clear, at least in ASA. They provided it to us via a case play. Just because the ruling results in the same two-base award as at TOP is immaterial. If that we're how OKC wanted it ruled, they would never had said two bases from the TOK, and they would not have used 8-5G as the applicable rule.

[ASA Ump MN]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I find it amazing that after the discussion and evidence presented, there is still argument.

I didn't word that very well ..... I know the rule now thanks to you!! I just had a problem with that play even being possible in the 1st place.

Great thread!

" Each runner would be awarded two bases from the time the ball left F7’s foot."

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Mike, that play doesn't really differentiate well - as the runners are getting 2 bases from TOP, and also 2 bases from TOK (time of kick? ). Since neither runner had advanced a base, the bases at TOP and TOK are the same.

Incidentally, 8-5G refers to live overthrown balls and blocked balls... where is the rule that tells us to treat an unintentionally kicked ball as a thrown ball?

Just in the way of comparison with other rule sets, and this example has some holes in it also....

If the play as described in the OP occurred in an NCAA game, the ruling would fall under 9.9 Fair Batted Blocked Ball.

The rule contains no mention of an intentional/unintentional act of the part of the fielder, it only says "when it deflects," and then the umpires would essentially have to combine two sections of the rule to apply the correct ruling.

9.9 Fair Batted Blocked Ball
A fair batted ball becomes blocked:

9.9.3 When it bounces over, wedges under, or passes through a fence or any designated boundary on the field........
9.9.4 When it deflects off of a defensive player and crosses into dead ball territory.......

EFFECT-(9.9.2 to 9.9.4)-The ball is dead. The batter is awarded second base and credited with a two-base hit (double). Each runner is awarded two bases from the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch.