When does a play end?

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by BigUmpJohn
Don't mean to change the subject, but I'm going to.

How bout in SP? Our league makes us call time after the play ends, but when does a play end? Where does the ball have to be? I wait until an infielder is in the infield dirt with possession of the ball and all runners have stopped their forward motion before I call time. Thoughts?

Thanks.

The book says infield area, not dirt, not infielder.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
... snip ... R1 at 3B, less than 2 outs, and a walked B-R is just barely walking to 2B, wanting a throw, then stops 6" short and starts slowly back to 1B, I probably have an out for USC - "behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play." But I don't have an out under the LB rule.

WMB

Correct about LB; but I don't know about UC and softball doesn't have a delay of game rule for runners.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Dan, I know what your position on this is, because you were in the midst of a fierce debate on McGriff's about 16 mo ago...

There was no fierce debate on my part. And here I merely posted my opinion since the question was asked, not in an attempt to have you begin your diatribe again, nor to rehash what some other persons unknown perhaps did or did not say in a conversation on a different board a year and a half ago.

If you have no problems allowing the stop to occur anywhere along the line, and if that is good in your association, go for it. If your association doesn't consider a stop 3/4's of the way to second with the runner then returning to first as being "running the bases in reverse order to make a travesty of the game", then cool beans with me.

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
... and ASA has had it for many years...

I do not do ASA. The folks around her that do tell me that ASA teaches that the stop must occur within one or two steps of rounding first. Mike, is it your understanding that ASA allows the stop to occur anywhere along the path between first and second, even half way or perhaps over half way?

[Edited by SC Ump on Jul 1st, 2003 at 09:57 PM]

[BigUmpJohn]

The book says infield area, not dirt, not infielder.

Ok, then. What does that mean? What is the "infield area"? Is that the dirt or near the bases? I know it doesn't have to be an infielder--that was a mistake on my part. I meant any fielder. But what is the infield area?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by SC Ump

There was no fierce debate on my part. And here I merely posted my opinion since the question was asked, not in an attempt to have you begin your diatribe again, nor to rehash what some other persons unknown perhaps did or did not say in a conversation on a different board a year and a half ago.

If you have no problems allowing the stop to occur anywhere along the line, and if that is good in your association, go for it. If your association doesn't consider a stop 3/4's of the way to second with the runner then returning to first as being "running the bases in reverse order to make a travesty of the game", then cool beans with me.

I do not do ASA. The folks around her that do tell me that ASA teaches that the stop must occur within one or two steps of rounding first. Mike, is it your understanding that ASA allows the stop to occur anywhere along the path between first and second, even half way or perhaps over half way?

[Edited by SC Ump on Jul 1st, 2003 at 09:57 PM]

ASA 8.7.T.3.a: "A batter-runner who rounds first base toward second base may stop, but then must immediatedly return to first or attempt to advance non-stop to second base."

The only concern is the stop off the base while the pitcher controls the ball in the circle. Doesn't mention where the stop takes place between the bases, nor does it prescribe a certain distance to the umpire anywhere in the POE or Clinic Guide.

My opinion is there is no reason to interject personal belief into a rule when it is not necessary or prescribed.

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by BigUmpJohn
Ok, then. What does that mean? What is the "infield area"? Is that the dirt or near the bases? ... snip ... But what is the infield area?

My understanding is anywhere close enough to the bases to negate the runners chance to advance, as long as "all runners have stopped their forward motion".

[Dakota]

Originally posted by SC Ump
If your association doesn't consider a stop 3/4's of the way to second with the runner then returning to first as being "running the bases in reverse order to make a travesty of the game", then cool beans with me.

First, this rule does not say it is illegal to run the bases in reverse order. Otherwise, any runner caught in a rundown would be immediately out.

The key phrase here is "to make a travesty of the game."

Would your runner above be guilty of that? Well, maybe, but not just because the runner went more than 2 (or 3 or 4 or 5 or pick your arbitrary number) of steps from 1st base.

It would be because s/he was engaging in some kind of taunting - daring an unskilled defense to try to throw her out, etc.

Example: batter hits a home run. Runs all the way to 3/4 between 3rd and home, and then decides to reverse and run the bases in reverse order. That is making a travesty of the game.

Merely taking a step (or 5) "too far" (according to your opinion) is not.

[SC Ump]

Originally posted by Dakota

The key phrase here is "to make a travesty of the game."

That and your mention of the "taunting" aspect is my understanding and also specifically why I referred to this in this discussion.

My understanding on this rule and its history was that it was put in place because somewhere in baseball's past, there would be runners on 1st and 3rd, and the runner at 1st would steal 2nd on one pitch, "steal" 1st on the next pitch, "steal" 2nd again on the following, then "steal" 1st again, etc., all in an attempt to instigate a throw from the catcher.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

My understanding of this rule...

Coach's perspective: Runner at 3rd. BR is walked and proceeds past 1st toward 2nd and stops. Purpose? To draw a play by the defense on the BR/R1 so that R3 can score prior to an out being made on R1 between 1st and 2nd. Run counts!

Umpire's perspective: It is a live ball situation. Pitcher must control ball within the circle (one foot on or inside the circle). R1 is allowed to round 1st and stop but then must immediately either proceed to 2nd or return to 1st. Stopping at any position between the bases is okay. Unless the pitcher makes a play, the runner cannot change directions or stop again. Once the pitcher initiates a play (raises the arm to throw or makes some kind of a feint) then regular base running rules are in effect and runner can stop or change directions as needed to avoid the tag-out. The runner is not allowed to stand off the base waiting for the pitcher to make a play or to change directions back and forth towards 1st and then 2nd.

If runner does not immediately choose a direction and proceed, they can and should be called out.

From FED rulebook 8-7-1: When a runner is legitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter touching first base, and while the pitcher has possession of the ball within the 16-foot pitching circle, the runner may stop once, but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base.

The fact the the FED rules include an exception 'somewhat' reinforces this philosophy that a runner cannot taunt, or attempt to draw/attract a play... for once a play is made, the runner is no longer in jeopardy of the umpire declaring them out for being off base:
EXCEPTION: The runner will not be declared out if a play is made on another runner, (a fake throw is considered a play), the pitcher no longer has possession of the ball within the 16-foot circle, or the pitcher releases the ball on a pitch to the batter.

8-7-2 incorporates a similar philosophy. Unless there is a play made, (ART 2.) "Once the runner stops at a base for any reason, she will be declared out if she leaves the base." (e.g. BR reaches 1st and stops; play is made at 3rd; R1 may leave 1st and attempt to advance to 2nd but should not be allowed to stop at 1st, and then step off to attract a throw and thereby allow R3 to score.)

My immediate is a very short time - anything more than a momentary hesitation is rewarded with an out call. I generally don't wait for the defense to see what is going to happen and then make a defensive response. I ring the out.