checked swing removing a walk

[DaveASA/FED]

Saw this the other day, R1 on 1st 3-1 count on batter. She checked her swing and PU calls a ball, BR trotts to 1st, R1 trotting to 2nd. Catcher asks PU to check with BU, he signals that she went thus makeing it a 3-2 count. Pitcher now throws the ball to 2nd basewoman who tags R1 out 3 steps before 2nd. Now what is the call??

[kellerumps]

Dead Ball....Put the Runner back on 1st.

[Duke]

I don't disagree with a dead ball but can you point me to any ruling on this? Thanks.

[SamNVa]

Kellerumps,

You are the 2nd (and 3rd?) umpire(s) whose opinion I respect who have said to return the runner to 1st. Is this a softball ruling? Do you consider it a 10-6-C situation?

I know that in baseball (don't beat me up too badly, Mike) the runner would be out. There is a specific baseball ruling that says that runners and fielders must be aware of the fact that a check swing reversal with a 3-x count could put the runner in jeopardy. That's why I always taught my catcher to throw down to 2nd on a walk on an apparent check swing then ask the PU to check with the BU on the check swing.

SamC

[kellerumps]

Yes 10-6-C is what I am working under. If I(as PU) say "Ball" and it is ball 4 then the batter is free to proceed to 1st. If that call gets overturned on appeal, then we put the baserunners back to where they were at the time of appeal.

[whiskers_ump]

I always try to go to partner when count is 3-1 or
3-2 and there is a check swing..."Partner, swing.
{that swing is for Mike's benefit, I usually asked did she
go...LOL}

SamC.

I tend to agree with Keller's. We as the umpire, have put the
batter and runner in these positions, by announcing "ball".
Therefore we allowed the advancement and the defense is helpless
until the appeal is asked for, which in this case seems somewhat
after the batter had stated towards 1B so their opportunity to
get the runner going to 2B is slim. Return her and play on.

JMO

glen

[chris s]

Originally posted by SamNVa
Kellerumps,

You are the 2nd (and 3rd?) umpire(s) whose opinion I respect who have said to return the runner to 1st. Is this a softball ruling? Do you consider it a 10-6-C situation?

I know that in baseball (don't beat me up too badly, Mike) the runner would be out. There is a specific baseball ruling that says that runners and fielders must be aware of the fact that a check swing reversal with a 3-x count could put the runner in jeopardy. That's why I always taught my catcher to throw down to 2nd on a walk on an apparent check swing then ask the PU to check with the BU on the check swing.

SamC

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!1
Sam, know why BB is different???? Cuz(at least down here) all the way old guys work softball, they are real slow to appeal........ Please guys, THIS was a joke....LOL

[DaveASA/FED]

Just to make sure I am following you all. You would call a dead ball and reset the field (R1 at first) and BR at the plate? No matter if R1 was safe or out at 2nd? What if it was a passed ball? And if you would reset R1 is this different than a runner taking off to 1st on ball 3 thinking it's 4 in that this was an umpire act that changed the count not a player/coaches screw up?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by DaveASA/FED
Just to make sure I am following you all. You would call a dead ball and reset the field (R1 at first) and BR at the plate? No matter if R1 was safe or out at 2nd? What if it was a passed ball? And if you would reset R1 is this different than a runner taking off to 1st on ball 3 thinking it's 4 in that this was an umpire act that changed the count not a player/coaches screw up?

Taking your last question first, the rule (10-6C) only applies if the umpire makes a delayed call (e.g. late calling of a dropped infield fly results in runners advancing because they think they are forced & being put out) or a reversed call (the situation discussed in this thread). If the batter has the count wrong and advances on ball 3, then that is a live ball play and whatever happens, happens.

Your first question, application of 10-6C is a judgment call as to whether anyone was placed in jeopardy. In the case of a wild pitch or passed ball, the umpire may very well rule that the defense was not placed in jeopardy wrt the runner's advance - that was due to the WP/PB and not the changed call, and leave the runner on 2nd.

[kellerumps]

Originally posted by DaveASA/FED
Just to make sure I am following you all. You would call a dead ball and reset the field (R1 at first) and BR at the plate? No matter if R1 was safe or out at 2nd? What if it was a passed ball? And if you would reset R1 is this different than a runner taking off to 1st on ball 3 thinking it's 4 in that this was an umpire act that changed the count not a player/coaches screw up?

Dave,

You added some details to the play. I only responded to the situation that was given, which based on the information given would be my call with a RULE to back me up.

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

I thought we already answered this over on eteamz!

???????

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by DaveASA/FED
Just to make sure I am following you all. You would call a dead ball and reset the field (R1 at first) and BR at the plate? No matter if R1 was safe or out at 2nd? What if it was a passed ball? And if you would reset R1 is this different than a runner taking off to 1st on ball 3 thinking it's 4 in that this was an umpire act that changed the count not a player/coaches screw up?

Based on the original scenario, safe or out is irrelevent. It was stated that R1 was trotting to 2B, thereby only attempting to advance due to what was perceived as ball 4.

If it is a passed ball, you're not going to ask until after the play finishes. R1 stays wherever she ends up. If put out, I would have to be at 2B and I would need to believe the call placed the runner in jeopardy, B comes back to assume count.

[whiskers_ump]

Totally agree. A passed ball and a possible checked swing
are , , {different animals}

glen