Parent Looking for help AGAIN......

[greg99]

R2 on 2nd
R1 on 3rd

Batter hits fly ball to deep center. CF catchers ball and then falls through portable fence.

I don't know why the runners weren't still on base but both were not. R1 MIGHT have already touched home and R2 was past 3rd heading home.

R1 went back to 3rd
R2 was heading back to 2nd and BU called her out because she didn't touch 3rd on her way back 2nd. R2 did NOT beat the throw at 2nd either.

Now, is that the correct call?
I THINK that as soon as the fielded goes out of play it is a dead ball. I know it would have helped the base runners out this time. SO, CF caught the fly ball then went out of play. R1 gets home and R2 gets 3rd?

PONY tournament.

Thanks

[RadioBlue]

I cannot speak to PONY rules, but in FED, any runner beyond the next base of the base left too soon when the ball becomes dead precludes them from going back and retouching.

2-1-6: A runner may not return to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if:
a. she has reached a base beyond the base missed or left too soon and the ball becomes dead.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by greg99

...R2 was heading back to 2nd and BU called her out because she didn't touch 3rd on her way back 2nd...

This is an appeal play. The umpire cannot make this call without an appeal. R2 not beating the ball back to 2B is moot since F8 falling through the fence means we have a dead ball, and the throw back to 2B is a live ball appeal.

Since the ball was dead, the defense would have to make a dead ball appeal for any missed bases / bases left too soon that they wished to make.

If the defense does not make a proper appeal, then the umpire would award bases according to PONY rules for a catch and carry.

So, to answer your question, no it was not the correct call.

[MD Longhorn]

As you've been told, the ball is dead, so the defense's actions are moot until the offense gets a chance to fulfill their duties. Both runners are awarded 1 base from where they were when the ball went out of play. If runner from 2nd was beyond 3rd, she is awarded home. However, both runners need to retouch the bases they left early, or be susceptible to possible appeals.

In any case, the umpire was wrong (again) to rule an out for any appealable play until that appeal has actually been made. Sounds like (from this and the other post) your umpires need some retraining.

[KJUmp]

2012 PONY Softball Rule Book:
9.5 Baserunners Are Entitled To Advance Without Liabaliity To Be Put Out

j. (1) When a live ball is unintentionally carried by a fielder into dead ball territory, the ball becomes dead. All baserunners are awarded one base from the last base touched at the time "fielder" enters dead ball territory.

POINTS OF EMPHASIS #17 (Pg.VIII)
The fence is an extension of the playing field, making it legal for a player to climb and make a catch. If she catches a ball in the air and her momentum carries her through or over the fence, the catch is legal, the batter-runner is out, the ball is dead and, with fewer than two outs, all runners advance one base without liability to be put out.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

This is an appeal play. The umpire cannot make this call without an appeal. R2 not beating the ball back to 2B is moot since F8 falling through the fence means we have a dead ball, and the throw back to 2B is a live ball appeal.

Since the ball was dead, the defense would have to make a dead ball appeal for any missed bases / bases left too soon that they wished to make.

If the defense does not make a proper appeal, then the umpire would award bases according to PONY rules for a catch and carry.

So, to answer your question, no it was not the correct call.

Tom, I don't touch PONY, so this question is to understand your reponse. In all forms of softball that I do, the sequence would be different, in that the umpire would award bases on the catch and carry, and THEN, after runners have an opportunity to complete running responsibilities (which may or may not allow a retouch based on that coade), would the umpires entertain dead ball appeals. Your answer says appeals first, then award bases?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Tom, I don't touch PONY, so this question is to understand your reponse. In all forms of softball that I do, the sequence would be different, in that the umpire would award bases on the catch and carry, and THEN, after runners have an opportunity to complete running responsibilities (which may or may not allow a retouch based on that coade), would the umpires entertain dead ball appeals. Your answer says appeals first, then award bases?

I wasn't trying to be precise as to chronology. My initial point was the umpire should not have merely declared the runner out for missing 3B on her return to 2B.

I see it as:

1. Dead ball
2. Umpire waits for runners to return if they are going to.
3. Umpire makes the base awards.
4. Umpire would entertain any dead ball appeals.

[greg99]

Thanks for the help.
Does R2 have to touch 3rd on her way back to 2nd after she saw the fielder catch the ball?

And how much time appr. would the umpire give the runners to get back to their base. If R1 touched home and was in the dugout before she realized she needed to get back to 3rd, Could she?

R2 was on her way back to 2nd after the catch. With all the confussion the throw beat her to 2nd and she just stop going there. If she would have went back and stood on the base would have better umpire still awarded her 3rd?

Thanks

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by greg99

Thanks for the help.
Does R2 have to touch 3rd on her way back to 2nd after she saw the fielder catch the ball?

And how much time appr. would the umpire give the runners to get back to their base. If R1 touched home and was in the dugout before she realized she needed to get back to 3rd, Could she?

R2 was on her way back to 2nd after the catch. With all the confussion the throw beat her to 2nd and she just stop going there. If she would have went back and stood on the base would have better umpire still awarded her 3rd?

Thanks

Am I correct in the way I'm picturing this play? As my mind's eye sees it, R2 is beyond 3B when the ball became dead and R1 may have already touched home when the ball became dead, correct? The answer to this question is important in some codes.

Again, I don't work PONY and I only have access to a FED book at this time. In FED, if the runners were beyond the next base, nothing else matters but a proper appeal by the defense. If they're appealed for leaving too soon, they're out. They do not have the ability to retouch bases if they're beyond the next base at the time of the dead ball.

In the answer to your first question above, yes. Returning runners must touch intervening bases on their way back. (Not true on a foul ball, for example.)

If they have the right to do so and are apparently doing so, I will allow baserunners to fulfill their baserunning responsibilities before allowing any sort of an appeal during a dead-ball situation, as Dakota pointed out. However, once they've entered the team area (again, speaking only for the codes I work) they do not have the ability to come back out and touch or retouch any bases.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Again, I don't work PONY and I only have access to a FED book at this time. In FED, if the runners were beyond the next base, nothing else matters but a proper appeal by the defense. If they're appealed for leaving too soon, they're out. They do not have the ability to retouch bases if they're beyond the next base at the time of the dead ball.

I'm relatively certain FED is the only org with that rule in either baseball or softball. Some others don't allow a return and retouch if the runner touches a forward base AFTER the dead ball. Most (including Pony) do not prohibit any of this.

Here's what should have happened. Ball caught, CF goes out of play. "DEAD BALL!" R1 is past home, R2 is past 3rd. "YOU! Home!" (pointing at R1). Then "YOU-Home" (pointing at R2). Then let the runners do what they will. To avoid an out, R2 must touch third, then 2nd, then 3rd, then home. R1 must touch home, then third, then home.

THEN if the defense wants to appeal, they can do so, and any runner doing something other than what I typed would be out.

(And if we have no outs, then we can eject Defensive coach who comes unglued when R2 is awarded home ... which is stupid, but correct).

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I wasn't trying to be precise as to chronology. My initial point was the umpire should not have merely declared the runner out for missing 3B on her return to 2B.

I see it as:

1. Dead ball
2. Umpire waits for runners to return if they are going to.
3. Umpire makes the base awards.
4. Umpire would entertain any dead ball appeals.

Same for PONY

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

......The answer to this question is important in some codes.
Again, I don't work PONY and I only have access to a FED book at this time. In FED, if the runners were beyond the next base, nothing else matters but a proper appeal by the defense. If they're appealed for leaving too soon, they're out. They do not have the ability to retouch bases if they're beyond the next base at the time of the dead ball.
In the answer to your first question above, yes. Returning runners must touch intervening bases on their way back. (Not true on a foul ball, for example.)
Same for PONY

If they have the right to do so and are apparently doing so, I will allow baserunners to fulfill their baserunning responsibilities before allowing any sort of an appeal during a dead-ball situation, as Dakota pointed out. However, once they've entered the team area (again, speaking only for the codes I work) they do not have the ability to come back out and touch or retouch any bases.

Same for PONY

[drh898]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'm relatively certain FED is the only org with that rule in either baseball or softball. Some others don't allow a return and retouch if the runner touches a forward base AFTER the dead ball. Most (including Pony) do not prohibit any of this.

Here's what should have happened. Ball caught, CF goes out of play. "DEAD BALL!" R1 is past home, R2 is past 3rd. "YOU! Home!" (pointing at R1). Then "YOU-Home" (pointing at R2). Then let the runners do what they will. To avoid an out, R2 must touch third, then 2nd, then 3rd, then home. R1 must touch home, then third, then home.

THEN if the defense wants to appeal, they can do so, and any runner doing something other than what I typed would be out.

(And if we have no outs, then we can eject Defensive coach who comes unglued when R2 is awarded home ... which is stupid, but correct).

I don't see how R2 can be awarded home. A catch was made. The runner must go back to second to tag up before she can advance. How can you award her home after a caught fly ball. Logically, it seems to me, she can be awarded 3rd, IF she goes back to second first but not home because she didn't pay attention to the catch. What am I missing?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by drh898

...What am I missing?

You are missing that the award is based on the last base touched at the time the ball becomes dead.

[greg99]

It does seem that R2 shouldn't be given home. She did touch 3rd before the ball was dead, but it wasn't a "legal" touch.

Another question, How does the defense make a dead ball appeal?

Thanks for all the help.