Parent Looking for help AGAIN......

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Tom, I don't touch PONY, so this question is to understand your reponse. In all forms of softball that I do, the sequence would be different, in that the umpire would award bases on the catch and carry, and THEN, after runners have an opportunity to complete running responsibilities (which may or may not allow a retouch based on that coade), would the umpires entertain dead ball appeals. Your answer says appeals first, then award bases?

I wasn't trying to be precise as to chronology. My initial point was the umpire should not have merely declared the runner out for missing 3B on her return to 2B.

I see it as:

1. Dead ball
2. Umpire waits for runners to return if they are going to.
3. Umpire makes the base awards.
4. Umpire would entertain any dead ball appeals.

[greg99]

Thanks for the help.
Does R2 have to touch 3rd on her way back to 2nd after she saw the fielder catch the ball?

And how much time appr. would the umpire give the runners to get back to their base. If R1 touched home and was in the dugout before she realized she needed to get back to 3rd, Could she?

R2 was on her way back to 2nd after the catch. With all the confussion the throw beat her to 2nd and she just stop going there. If she would have went back and stood on the base would have better umpire still awarded her 3rd?

Thanks

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by greg99

Thanks for the help.
Does R2 have to touch 3rd on her way back to 2nd after she saw the fielder catch the ball?

And how much time appr. would the umpire give the runners to get back to their base. If R1 touched home and was in the dugout before she realized she needed to get back to 3rd, Could she?

R2 was on her way back to 2nd after the catch. With all the confussion the throw beat her to 2nd and she just stop going there. If she would have went back and stood on the base would have better umpire still awarded her 3rd?

Thanks

Am I correct in the way I'm picturing this play? As my mind's eye sees it, R2 is beyond 3B when the ball became dead and R1 may have already touched home when the ball became dead, correct? The answer to this question is important in some codes.

Again, I don't work PONY and I only have access to a FED book at this time. In FED, if the runners were beyond the next base, nothing else matters but a proper appeal by the defense. If they're appealed for leaving too soon, they're out. They do not have the ability to retouch bases if they're beyond the next base at the time of the dead ball.

In the answer to your first question above, yes. Returning runners must touch intervening bases on their way back. (Not true on a foul ball, for example.)

If they have the right to do so and are apparently doing so, I will allow baserunners to fulfill their baserunning responsibilities before allowing any sort of an appeal during a dead-ball situation, as Dakota pointed out. However, once they've entered the team area (again, speaking only for the codes I work) they do not have the ability to come back out and touch or retouch any bases.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Again, I don't work PONY and I only have access to a FED book at this time. In FED, if the runners were beyond the next base, nothing else matters but a proper appeal by the defense. If they're appealed for leaving too soon, they're out. They do not have the ability to retouch bases if they're beyond the next base at the time of the dead ball.

I'm relatively certain FED is the only org with that rule in either baseball or softball. Some others don't allow a return and retouch if the runner touches a forward base AFTER the dead ball. Most (including Pony) do not prohibit any of this.

Here's what should have happened. Ball caught, CF goes out of play. "DEAD BALL!" R1 is past home, R2 is past 3rd. "YOU! Home!" (pointing at R1). Then "YOU-Home" (pointing at R2). Then let the runners do what they will. To avoid an out, R2 must touch third, then 2nd, then 3rd, then home. R1 must touch home, then third, then home.

THEN if the defense wants to appeal, they can do so, and any runner doing something other than what I typed would be out.

(And if we have no outs, then we can eject Defensive coach who comes unglued when R2 is awarded home ... which is stupid, but correct).

[drh898]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'm relatively certain FED is the only org with that rule in either baseball or softball. Some others don't allow a return and retouch if the runner touches a forward base AFTER the dead ball. Most (including Pony) do not prohibit any of this.

Here's what should have happened. Ball caught, CF goes out of play. "DEAD BALL!" R1 is past home, R2 is past 3rd. "YOU! Home!" (pointing at R1). Then "YOU-Home" (pointing at R2). Then let the runners do what they will. To avoid an out, R2 must touch third, then 2nd, then 3rd, then home. R1 must touch home, then third, then home.

THEN if the defense wants to appeal, they can do so, and any runner doing something other than what I typed would be out.

(And if we have no outs, then we can eject Defensive coach who comes unglued when R2 is awarded home ... which is stupid, but correct).

I don't see how R2 can be awarded home. A catch was made. The runner must go back to second to tag up before she can advance. How can you award her home after a caught fly ball. Logically, it seems to me, she can be awarded 3rd, IF she goes back to second first but not home because she didn't pay attention to the catch. What am I missing?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by drh898

...What am I missing?

You are missing that the award is based on the last base touched at the time the ball becomes dead.

[greg99]

It does seem that R2 shouldn't be given home. She did touch 3rd before the ball was dead, but it wasn't a "legal" touch.

Another question, How does the defense make a dead ball appeal?

Thanks for all the help.

[drh898]

Originally Posted by Dakota

You are missing that the award is based on the last base touched at the time the ball becomes dead.

That is true, but it is not the base she can legally touch after the catch. she must start at 2nd after the catch before she can touch 3rd.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by drh898

I don't see how R2 can be awarded home. A catch was made. The runner must go back to second to tag up before she can advance. How can you award her home after a caught fly ball. Logically, it seems to me, she can be awarded 3rd, IF she goes back to second first but not home because she didn't pay attention to the catch. What am I missing?

You're missing the exact verbiage in the rule. Everything you say is logical... it just isn't what the rules says. This is the reason I said it was stupid... I think ALL of us would consider the award of 3rd to be the most "fair" - but fair is not always what we're told to do by the rules at hand... and this case is one of those.

[JEL]

Originally Posted by drh898

I don't see how R2 can be awarded home. A catch was made. The runner must go back to second to tag up before she can advance. How can you award her home after a caught fly ball. Logically, it seems to me, she can be awarded 3rd, IF she goes back to second first but not home because she didn't pay attention to the catch. What am I missing?

>>" The runner must go back to second to tag up before she can advance."<<

Think about that a bit. Suppose she left early on any other fly ball out, rounded third and scored BUT WAS NEVER APPEALED what would the call be?

[drh898]

Originally Posted by JEL

>>" The runner must go back to second to tag up before she can advance."<<

Think about that a bit. Suppose she left early on any other fly ball out, rounded third and scored BUT WAS NEVER APPEALED what would the call be?

Ok, now that makes sense. I just had to get it straight in my mind. Thanks for the good discussion.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

......The answer to this question is important in some codes.
Again, I don't work PONY and I only have access to a FED book at this time. In FED, if the runners were beyond the next base, nothing else matters but a proper appeal by the defense. If they're appealed for leaving too soon, they're out. They do not have the ability to retouch bases if they're beyond the next base at the time of the dead ball.
In the answer to your first question above, yes. Returning runners must touch intervening bases on their way back. (Not true on a foul ball, for example.)
Same for PONY

If they have the right to do so and are apparently doing so, I will allow baserunners to fulfill their baserunning responsibilities before allowing any sort of an appeal during a dead-ball situation, as Dakota pointed out. However, once they've entered the team area (again, speaking only for the codes I work) they do not have the ability to come back out and touch or retouch any bases.

Same for PONY

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I wasn't trying to be precise as to chronology. My initial point was the umpire should not have merely declared the runner out for missing 3B on her return to 2B.

I see it as:

1. Dead ball
2. Umpire waits for runners to return if they are going to.
3. Umpire makes the base awards.
4. Umpire would entertain any dead ball appeals.

Same for PONY