Run scores on Appeal?

[Steven Criscuolo]

One out, second and third...fly ball caught. Both runners tag up but runner on 2nd leaves early. On appeal, runner on 2nd is called out. Runner on third tags up and crosses home plate before runner on second is called out on appeal. Does run count???

[BigUmpJohn]

Speaking ASA (I borrowed that from Mike Rowe.)

I'm going by POE 1K.
"If the appeal is the third out (which in this case it would be), all runs scored by runners in advance of the appealed runner and scored ahead of the legal appeal WOULD count. The run does count.

Hope that helps.

[Dakota]

I agree with John - run scores. The appeal of failure to tag up on a caught fly ball is a timing play, not a force play, so the run counts.

Now, if it was R1 on third who left early, and R2 on 2nd who tagged up and scored before the appeal, then the run would NOT count. A following runner's score does not count if the preceeding runner is called out on appeal for the third out.

[BigUmpJohn]

I agree with John

Yay!!!! Someone agrees with me!!! Just one of those days for me today.

[emaxos]

Seems to me that the infraction actually occured before the run scored (runner left early which obviously happened before a legal tag). The fact that the out call was delayed until an appeal was made which must wait on action to stop should not give the offense an advantage. If POE 1K is in regards to a general appeal play that results in the third out, I can see the run counting but in this situation, I can't believe the spirit and intent would allow the run.

[Steven Criscuolo]

What is POE 1K?

Originally posted by emaxos
Seems to me that the infraction actually occured before the run scored (runner left early which obviously happened before a legal tag). The fact that the out call was delayed until an appeal was made which must wait on action to stop should not give the offense an advantage. If POE 1K is in regards to a general appeal play that results in the third out, I can see the run counting but in this situation, I can't believe the spirit and intent would allow the run.

In ASA, an appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base left too soon on a caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if the runner is still on the playing field. (POE 1B)

Note to Steven: POE 1K is: ASA Points of Emphasis 1K, titled/labeled APPEALS, TAG-UPS.

Hope this helps.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by emaxos
Seems to me that the infraction actually occured before the run scored (runner left early which obviously happened before a legal tag). The fact that the out call was delayed until an appeal was made which must wait on action to stop should not give the offense an advantage. If POE 1K is in regards to a general appeal play that results in the third out, I can see the run counting but in this situation, I can't believe the spirit and intent would allow the run.

Speaking ASA

Remember that thread on coaches we had just a little while ago? Well, these are the types of answers that cause the problem.

When someone, including umpires, offer "spirit" and "intent" without an associated interpretation of a rule as justification, it is often an indication they do not know the rules.

A team does NOT have to wait for action to stop to make an appeal. There is such a thing as a "live ball appeal". Not only does the point of emphasis support the call, but you can also cite rules 1, 5.5, 8.7.F & Effect.

BTW, the "intent" of the rule is to not allow runners to advance without following the proper procedures in doing so, which is why R2 would be ruled out on proper appeal.

Under the "spirit" of the rule, the ruling gives no team an advantage as R1 did everything in the manner prescribed by the rules noted.

My citations for the "intent and spirit" statements are the rules and POE (Point of Emphasis) above, multiple plays in sections 1, 5 and 8 of the 2003 ASA Case Book and the 2003 ASA Umpire Clinic Guide, pages7, 9, 11, 34 and 55.

While you may think this post is condescending, it is not. It is meant to be an example of what umpires deal with on a daily basis with coaches and players who "read the book, cover to cover." The problem is reading, learning, understanding and knowing are not always one in the same. And before you go there, I will agree that many umpires are just as bad as they are the real bane to a good umpire.




[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Jun 20th, 2003 at 06:36 AM]

[emaxos]

I humbly acknowledge my naivety about every aspect of the game. That’s why I read every post on this board. While technically an appeal on a runner leaving early can be made during live play, I have never seen it done that way in my short 8 years around the game. I have seen umpires call dead ball and the runner out without an appeal being made in NFHS games.
While R1 did nothing wrong, R2 did and her team should not be rewarded for it.
If you had a BOO situation with 2 out that resulted in a score and the appeal was made before the next pitch, that run and any other advance by runners would be nullified. That’s in Dixie rules (7:02 Effect B-C 2). I dangerously assume ASA to to similar. I do not have an ASA rulebook.
Allowing the run to score in this situation just doesn’t make any sense, IMHO. If the rules support this, they should be reviewed specific to this situation.
And I wasn’t going there.

[WestMichBlue]

emaxos said:"While technically an appeal on a runner leaving early can be made during live play, I have never seen it done that way in my short 8 years around the game."

It happens in almost every game I call. Line drive to F4, ump calls batter out. Throw to 1B beats R1 scrambling back, umpire calls R1 out. Why is R1 out? She wasn't tagged while off the base, the base was taged but R1 wasn't forced. R1 is out on appeal! Everybody in the park knows that she left early; the actions of the defensive players tell the umpire that they are processing a live ball appeal. They don't have to say anything; Blue knows it and makes the call.

Now - do you still say you've never see this in 8 years?

"I have seen umpires call dead ball and the runner out without an appeal being made in NFHS games."

Good call, Blue - if this happened more than a couple years ago. That used to be an umpire's call in NFHS. Baseball came back to the player controlled appeal rule last year; softball changed back a couple years ago.

"Seems to me that the infraction actually occured before the run scored.... Allowing the run to score in this situation just doesn’t make any sense, IMHO."

R2 was put out after R1 scored. Should be end of discussion. Maybe she was tagged out going into 3B; maybe she missed 3B and was tagged trying to get back to the base; maybe she was out at home, or caught in a rundown. Maybe the coach knew she left early and was yelling at her to go back and she was tagged by F6; maybe the throw went directly from the OF to 2B and R2 was out on live ball appeal. It doesn't matter how she was put out, only when! Did the defense get the out before the run scored?

WMB

[emaxos]

My apologies, a runner getting doubled up on a line drive or fly ball didn't come to mind as the same thing but I realize it is. No matter what I read, the run counting in the original situation cited doesn't make sense to me but I concede and will continue to learn. BTW, I only coach rec league. My daughter has played at the HS and travel club levels and will be on SB scholarship to college this fall, so I will continue to watch and learn a few more years. Perhaps by the time she graduates, I'll have it figured out.

[WestMichBlue]

"a runner getting doubled up on a line drive or fly ball didn't come to mind as the same thing"

With no disrespect to you, Emaxos, this is why a lot of "non-students of the game" (ie., fans, parents, even coaches and players) have problems with rules. There are many slang terms (doubled up on a fly ball) floating around that are not rules. Umpires, who should be students of the game, know there are no such rules in their books, but there are rules for appeal plays for leaving early. And there are rules in the book for determing how runs are scored. And specifically the types of outs and timing of outs that allow or disqualify runs scored.

Let me give you a different example. 2 outs, R1 at 3B, slow ground ball on infield, hurried throw to 1B in the dirt and is not fielded for the 3rd out. R1, who had a head start, touches home plate before B-R reaches 1B.

Sit 1: B-R passes 1B and starts for 2B, but then sees that F3 has ball and decides to pull up and return. F4 tags the base and looks to the ump, who calls B-R out. Does run score?

Sit 2: B-R misses the base, pulls up and turns right and trots back to 1B. F4 tags the base and looks to the ump, who calls B-R out. Does run score?

These are both live ball appeal plays. Sit 1: the B-R has already achieved 1B so B-R is put out between the bases. Timing play, run scores. Sit 2: B-R did not achieve 1B so out is at 1B; run can not score when B-R makes 3rd out at 1B.

In both cases the run scored before the infraction occured. In both cases the run scored before the out was physically called. But the run counted only in Sit 1.

Hope this helps.

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by emaxos
No matter what I read, the run counting in the original situation cited doesn't make sense to me but I concede and will continue to learn.

As WMB pointed out, there are force plays and there are timing plays.

If the third out of an inning is a force out, or if the third out is putting the batter-runner out before reaching 1B, then no runs score regardless of when this out was called relative to the runner crossing home.

With a timing play, OTOH, runs that cross before the out is called will score.

If you think about your "instinct" about outs and runs scoring, you know this.

An appeal play is, by definition, a play the umpire cannot rule on until the appeal is made. Appeal plays include missed base, leaving early on a caught fly, batting out of order, etc.

If the appeal for the third out is an out that would have been a force out (e.g. runner from 1B missing 2B), then no runs score. If the appeal for the third out is for an out that would NOT have been a force out (e.g. runner from 1B missing 3B), then runs count for any preceeding runners who scored before the appeal.

An exception on appeals is if the appeal is a timing play and is for the 3rd out, succeeding runner's scores do not count. Example: 2 outs. R1 on 2nd. R2 on 1st. BR hits an outfield fly for an apparent inside the park home run. But, R2 misses third base. Defense appeals R2 missing 3rd after all runners cross home. One run (R1) scores. The batter-runner's score does not count. Inning over.

[Edited by Dakota on Jun 20th, 2003 at 11:02 AM]

[Dakota]

One other point ...

Many fans (and coaches) confuse the live ball appeal with a "force." Just because all the defense has to do is tag the base on a live ball appeal does not mean that out is a "force." It is a live ball appeal. Whether it is a force or not is determined by whether the runner was forced to advance to that base because the batter became a batter-runner.

[Andy]

Originally posted by Dakota

An exception on appeals is if the appeal is a timing play and is for the 3rd out, succeeding runner's scores do not count. Example: 2 outs. R1 on 2nd. R2 on 1st. BR hits an outfield fly for an apparent inside the park home run. But, R1 misses third base. Defense appeals R1 missing 3rd after all runners cross home. One run (R1) scores. The batter-runner's score does not count. Inning over.

Tom, what am I missing here?

In this scenario, no runs would score. R1, starting at second with R2 on first is forced to third. If she missed third and is appealed properly, the third out is a force and no other runs may score.

Now it just occurred to me that this may be a typo, and you may have meant to say R2 missed third as she rounded the bases. If this is the case, the run scored by R1 would count, but the runs scored by R2 and the BR would not.