first ejection in a while

[Coachtindell]

Your right! No advantage. Does that change the fact, that it happens.

I will use that as an arguement next time I see the one who professes he calls it though. I am not just saying this as an opinion. He told someone this, who in defending him said "he told me he has a small strike zone."

[Skahtboi]

Then all I can say is that this guy who said this must have been "unseasoned." (Translation, a rookie or a near rookie.)

[Coachtindell]

He is young, but coaches have heard this before. The I call a tight zone phrase. This isn't the first time, and I have heard it in other conversations on similar boards.

Ultimately my arguement is that the strike zone is according to the rules and those who interpret as their own strike zone should be flogged....lol.

[Dakota]

I've read lots of coaches complaining about a tight zone (mostly on eteamz coach's board), but I've never actually met an umpire who admits to it.

I'm sure it happens, but ...

Anyway, as to the time issue, even with a time limit, a walk-a-thon can seem a lot longer. Not only that, unless you have a drop dead clock, that last inning can go on and on and on (even with a per inning run limit - it takes quite awhile to walk in five runs!).

Even umpires like to enjoy the game!

[Coachtindell]

The last inning is a whole other issue.

Let's talk about how the strike zone then is toes to noes.

Is that right? I have seen that more often then the tight zone.

[mo99]

CoachTindell

Sorry for joining this discussion a little late,but I must ask.What level ball are we talking about here that you coach?? Is it 12U or 10U?? If it is,you have got to be kidding me!!! At that age group,all you should be stressing to these young children are 1)Fundementals 2)Teamwork 3)Sportsmanship 4)and most of all having FUN!!! The umpires calls or perhaps YOUR desire to win should not be part of the equation.
While the rule book does define the strike zone,it is however subjective to the level of ball being played.I umpire Div 3 College,High School,ASA Womens Major,as well as all ages of the ASA youth program.If I called the "book strike zone"in Div 3 or HS Varsity in my area,I would be run out of there.We call nothing higher than a balls' width above the belt for the upper end of the zone,and nothing below the top of the knee.If I called that zone in a 12U game,I would be in for a very long night.There is no time limit on games here unless it is in tournament play.I set my strike zone to the level of play I am umpiring.In the 12U or 10U,I will call the full zone and then some realizing the difficulty pitchers at that age have at consistantly pitching in the zone.I try to make the game a little more enjoyable for the children at that age.Notice,I didnt say more enjoyable for the COACH.I explain in no uncertain terms to the coaches in these youth games at the pre game that I expect not to hear a word from them on judgement calls or they will spend their night in the parking lot.I believe sportmanship must be upheld at all costs,and yes even above winning, in these younger levels so the children learn respect for their opponents,the game, as well as the umpires.


Jeff
NCAA certified
NFHS certified
ASA certified

[Coachtindell]

Actually 10U rec league, so my purpose was fun. My arguement really isn't relevent to play. The arguement is regarding the rules.

Where do you stop in your intent to make the game more fun for the kids. Is it OK if they lead of a 1/2 second early from any base? This is a judgement call right.

What if a team is down 10 to nothing, and there is a close play at first do you give the out to the team that is behind, because after all it is a judgement call.

What if a team is absolutely slottering another team and the losing team interferes with a runner (obstruction) doesn't slow her much and she gets out at a close call to the next base. The obstruction is a judgement call.

Where do you stop the judgement calls in an effort to make the game more enjoyable.

I am scared to think of the conversation this is going to initiate, but I just have to ask what gives you the right to call it different than the rule book.

Yes, my daughter plays 10U, but I have to say winning is more fun than losing to her. She pitches 6-7 days a week in order to pitch to spots, does she deserve the strike zone to be called right or does the other pitcher who doesn't work as hard as her deserve a break in order to make the game more fun?

[mo99]

Coachtindell

I took time to read again all your posts on this subject,but I am still confused what you are looking for.Since you stated your 10 year old pitcher is quite proficient at hitting her spots,I think your team would actually benifit from an umpires smaller strike zone.Fortunately,I dont have to do many 10U games,but the ones I have,the pitchers are all over the place.Pitches in the dirt hitting my feet,others flying over my head into the backstop.Since your pitcher can hit a smaller target,I dont understand why you would want a larger zone.
Believe it or not,it is actually more difficult trying to call a good consistant zone at the younger levels because the pitchers are very inconsistant at hitting their target.A ball popping into the mitt at 60+ MPH at or around the intended target allows the umpire to get in a good rhythm behind the plate.An umpire cant get into that kind of rhythm in a lower level youth game.I think you were missing the point when you elaborated on other judgement calls in a game.All I was saying is by stretching the zone to the limits of the strike zone in 10U games like calling the full knee and calling the armpit strike leads to more batters swinging and not a walk fest.It is just a common sense,practical approach to make the game a bit more enjoyable for the children.After all,isnt that what we are BOTH out there for!

Jeff
NCAA Certified
NFHS Certified
ASA Certified

[Coachtindell]

it's really not a question regarding my daughter. It is more of a phylisophical question.

It is not a question regarding my daughter, but more what justifies tightening or widening.

How does someone decide to be different than the rule book, and based on the post prior to yours, how do you decide which rules to be more liberal with in your judgement.

[CecilOne]

There is only one strike zone in each rule book.

[mo99]

Coachtindell

Although you have yet to answer my questions,I will attempt to make you understand my point.While defined in the rule book,an umpire has his "own" zone which they call within those rules.We are able to stretch a zone in lower levels to its limits and tighten that zone in a college game.Have you ever watched a Major League Baseball Game? If a pitch is called a strike above the belt,who do you think goes crazy? The coach in the dugout of course! That is the accepted height in that level of ball which of course is not the rule book strike zone.I think you are dwelling far too much on the umpire during your games.As a high school catcher,I was taught to respect the men in blue and have my pitcher pitch to THEIR zone.After a half inning I would have a pretty good idea where his zone was.As a youth baseball coach,I employed that same philosiphy.I taught my kids that an umpire does not determine the outcome of a game,they do!Unless everyone on the team played an errorless game in the field,batted 3 for 3,threw every pitch to their intended target,and ran the bases perfectly,then and only then might an umpires call affect the outcome of the game.Hopefully all coaches would preach that,but that is another story in sportsmanship.

Jeff
NCAA Certified
NFHS Certified
ASA Certified

[Coachtindell]

You are the one who hasn't answered the question and the arguements used are not logical. There has been an arguement in baseball for several years now regarding the strike zone and that the tightening of it is contributing to the increase in homeruns.

It is umpires who have set the standard and continue to do so. I don't spend all my time focusing on this issue. I actually find it an interesting arguement and is why I discuss it in here.

If I honestly thought saying or argueing it during a game would make a difference I would, but I don't so unless it gets obsene, such as an umpire calling a really small zone against 10 year olds, then I usually leave it alone.

A tight strike zone takes the advantage away from the pitcher and benefits hitters, an enlarged strike zone does just the opposite. By calling it either way you are helping one or the other.

I argue that you should call it by the rules, regardless of the level and force the player to do the work.

This is sort of like lowering acedemic standards so everyone can get an A. As a coach, I'm not asking you to make it larger or smaller. Only call it by the book.

If my pitcher can't get it in the "real" strike zone and the batter wants to stand with the bat on her shoulder then let her walk.

She's not asking for charity!


No one has answered my question that I have asked all along, and there is really no need to move on until you do.

What gives any umpire the right to call a strike zone or any other rule of judgement different than the rule book?

Isn't that why we have a rule book? Otherwise why don't we let you make up the rules to even the field for both teams anytime you want.

So far many of you have admitted you break the rules, and have given reasons why you do it, but you haven't stated what gives you the right. Although I assume your answer has been given. That answer is you can do it because you are the Umpire!


Sort of like Clinton saying I can break the rules because I am President! ????????


[Edited by Coachtindell on Jul 5th, 2003 at 11:17 AM]

[CecilOne]

Let's not get into that, especially with such an ugly comparison.
Also, there are 2 issues:
1) trying to use the rule strike zone, but seeing a pitch differently because we are all human
2) deliberately altering the zone for a purpose, either altruistic or devious
We will always have the first, and I guess the second. When the second is for altruistic intent as expressed in this thread, that is understandable but incorrect. When the purpose is devious, that is unacceptable. Devious includes revenge, deliberately shortening a game, showing up a coach, etc.

[mo99]

Coachtindell

I can see a rational discussion is going no where with you.Trust me,if you were to walk onto the field to discuss ball and strikes in my game,you would be writing yourself a very prompt trip to the parking lot.But since you are a professed expert on the rule book,you then already know that questioning ball and strikes calls for an immediate ejection.
I am going to try to simplify my explanation in an effort that maybe I can open your eyes a little bit.I still dont believe I am spending all this time trying to make a 10U coach understand.This level is pure and simple a development level.Are your girls all distressed over a strike zone or are they still having fun??
Youth officiating(all sports)have always been a little more lax in the application of the rule book at the lower levels.In football and basketball,every single infraction is not called at the beginning levels and are more closely called as they progress.This is not infringing on the rules,but a common sense approach to officiating youth sports.I have no idea why an umpire would call a tight zone in a 10U game.That makes no sense to me at all.As umpires(good ones)we are not making up rules as we go.We are "adjusting" to suit the level of play.I really think you should take a crack at umpiring to get a proper perspective.Heck the test should be a breeze since you are already an authority on the rules.Then stand out there and see if your "perfect rule book strike zone"is acceptable in all your games regardless of the level of play.
By the way,in High School and College ball,it is not us, the umpires who define the zone,it is the coaches.If I would call the "rule book"strike zone in a Div 3 game,I can guarantee,I would be blackballed from doing their games in the future.Same goes with the High School teams in my area.
I have never gotten anything less than a cordial handshake and thank-yous from coaches of the 12U and 10U games complimenting me for the consistancy of my strike zone and my professionalism.After 15 years of umpiring,I take great pride in my umpiring and wouldnt even think of doing anything to harm the game.I firmly believe in my approach of applying the rules as do the coaches I umpire for.
When I was the UIC for our local youth league,we implemented a rule requiring all coaches to umpire 2 games in a season.We ran a pre season clinic and then paired the coaches with a seasoned umpire.What an eye opener that was!!!You would not believe how drastically that increased the sportsmanship of the coaches,Try a little umpiring coach,and let us all know how well you did.

Jeff
NCAA Certified
NFHS Certified
ASA Certified

[Coachtindell]

MO

For some reason you think I am upset with you and all umpires collectively. I am not.

Did my girls have fun, YES! We had a blast. They learned a lot and the parents have begged me to return.

We played ball, but we also played. Went to Regionals and watch Texas play, we had swim parties, sleep overs, etc.

We also had fun on the field. We celebrated all season, because as you well know it is the responsibility of the coach to make it fun at this level.

I'm asking out of curiosity. I had one "bad" umpire all year.

I'm just curious, and your right all coaches should have to umpire. I couldn't agree more, and when my girls are older and I don't have to coach anymore, I plan on doing just that.

I never said I was an expert at the rules. It doesn't take an expert to know the strike zone. I look to this board and eteamz on a regular basis in order get advice from some of the best and most dedicated umpires there are.

I appreciate the time and effort you have put into trying to explain. I understand you don't want kids to stand there with a bat on their shoulder, I understand you don't support shrinking strike zones at a lower level.

I don't support shrinking strike zones period. If you think about it if you force a smaller zones you give advantage to the hitters.

Done with this conversation as I am sure you are also. Thanks again.