BOO and placing runner(s)

[dtwsd]

I understand this part of BOO but I do have a question:

After the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat and:
a. BEFORE a legal or illegal pitch to the following batter
b. or before the pitcher and all infielders have vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory:
EFFECT:
a. The player who should have batted is out.
b. Any advance of runners and any run scored shall be nullified. All outs made stand.

Here is my question regarding EFFECT (b) above.
Are runners returned to the base they had when the ball was put into play by the improper batter or are they returned to the base they had at the beginning of the improper
at-bat? Example:

R1 is at 1B with no outs when improper batter B3 bats for B2. On the first pitch R1 steals 2B. When the count reaches 2-2 improper batter B3 grounds out 4-3.
R1 advances to 3B on the play. Before the next pitch the defense appeals BOO. B3 remains out on the play. B2 is out for failing to bat, but where do we place R1?
Does she go back to 2B (where she was when the ball was put in play) or 1B (where she was at the beginning of the improper at-bat)?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by dtwsd

I understand this part of BOO but I do have a question:

After the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat and:
a. BEFORE a legal or illegal pitch to the following batter
b. or before the pitcher and all infielders have vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory:
EFFECT:
a. The player who should have batted is out.
b. Any advance of runners and any run scored shall be nullified. All outs made stand.

Here is my question regarding EFFECT (b) above.
Are runners returned to the base they had when the ball was put into play by the improper batter or are they returned to the base they had at the beginning of the improper
at-bat? Example:

R1 is at 1B with no outs when improper batter B3 bats for B2. On the first pitch R1 steals 2B. When the count reaches 2-2 improper batter B3 grounds out 4-3.
R1 advances to 3B on the play. Before the next pitch the defense appeals BOO. B3 remains out on the play. B2 is out for failing to bat, but where do we place R1?
Does she go back to 2B (where she was when the ball was put in play) or 1B (where she was at the beginning of the improper at-bat)?

IMO, the runners are returned to the base they occupied at the time of the pitch which caused the improper batter to become a BR or out.

Logic: The person in the BB at the time of any action previous to that pitch had no effect on what occured on the bases during the period prior to the BOO becoming effective.

[NCASAUmp]

Agreed, but will reinforce the text after the bolded portion: all outs made stand. So we keep the outs that were made, and return any runners who weren't called out to the bases they occupied immediately prior to the last pitch.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

IMO, the runners are returned to the base they occupied at the time of the pitch which caused the improper batter to become a BR or out.

Logic: The person in the BB at the time of any action previous to that pitch had no effect on what occured on the bases during the period prior to the BOO becoming effective.

I agree with your ruling, but I'm questioning your logic a little bit. Consider that the batter may have swung at a pitch to help the runner get to second. I think your ruling is more in the spirit of all such violations which is that a pitch legalizes everything that happened before it.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by youngump

I agree with your ruling, but I'm questioning your logic a little bit. Consider that the batter may have swung at a pitch to help the runner get to second. I think your ruling is more in the spirit of all such violations which is that a pitch legalizes everything that happened before it.

2. When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out and the defensive team appeals to the umpire before the next pitch (legal or illegal), or prior to an intentional base on balls (S.P.), or before the infielders leave the diamond if a half-inning is ending. The umpire shall declare the batter who should have batted out (not the improper batter). The improper batter's time at bat is negated and she is returned to the dugout/bench area. All outs stand and runners who were not declared out must return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch. If a runner advances because of a stolen base, wild pitch, passed ball (F.P.) or an illegal pitch (F.P.) while the improper batter is at bat, such advance is legal.

[cteben]

by following the same logic, in ncaa all runners returned to base at time of pitch and NO outs stand except for the batter who should have batted

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

IMO, the runners are returned to the base they occupied at the time of the pitch which caused the improper batter to become a BR or out.

Logic: The person in the BB at the time of any action previous to that pitch had no effect on what occured on the bases during the period prior to the BOO becoming effective.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

I agree with your ruling, but I'm questioning your logic a little bit. Consider that the batter may have swung at a pitch to help the runner get to second. I think your ruling is more in the spirit of all such violations which is that a pitch legalizes everything that happened before it.

And who is to say that the batter who was supposed to bat wouldn't have done the same? OTOH, an out executed during any infraction isn't a presumption, but an event that actually occurred and earned by the offended team.

And if you think about it, there is no violation until protested, so presuming anything would be different is an unsubstantiated guess, at best.

[HugoTafurst]

FWIW:
As I understand things, this is one rule that is different in the three rule sets that I am most familiar with.

In all cases, proper batter is declared out.
Any runners not put out are returned to their base at the time of the pitch.

1) NCAA: No outs (recorded during playing action) stand
2) NFHS: Outs (recorded during playing action) stand EXCEPT for improper batter (her at bat -and therefore her out - is negated).

The improper batter's
time at bat is negated and she is returned to the dugout/bench area. All
outs stand and runners who were not declared out must return to the base
occupied at the time of the pitch.

3) ASA: All outs (recorded during playing action) stand (including an out on the improper batter - so you can get three outs on this....

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

3) ASA: All outs (recorded during playing action) stand (including an out on the improper batter - so you can get three outs on this....

Had this once. When it was introduced I figured I would never see anything like this, but I did........in the top of the first inning of the first game I umpired the spring following the rule change.

#1 singled, #3 hit into a 4-6-3 double play. I was shocked when the Ds scorekeeper got the catcher's attention, who turned to me and stated that the #2 batter didn't hit.

I stood back and ran the sequence of what just went down and sure enough, I had a triple play with just two batters. And the only thing I could think was...."COOL!"

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Had this once. When it was introduced I figured I would never see anything like this, but I did........in the top of the first inning of the first game I umpired the spring following the rule change.

#1 singled, #3 hit into a 4-6-3 double play. I was shocked when the Ds scorekeeper got the catcher's attention, who turned to me and stated that the #2 batter didn't hit.

I stood back and ran the sequence of what just went down and sure enough, I had a triple play with just two batters. And the only thing I could think was...."COOL!"

I'm still waiting for my first ASA 2 batter, 3 out play.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Had this once. When it was introduced I figured I would never see anything like this, but I did........in the top of the first inning of the first game I umpired the spring following the rule change.

#1 singled, #3 hit into a 4-6-3 double play. I was shocked when the Ds scorekeeper got the catcher's attention, who turned to me and stated that the #2 batter didn't hit.

I stood back and ran the sequence of what just went down and sure enough, I had a triple play with just two batters. And the only thing I could think was...."COOL!"

Gotta love it when there's a big rule change.

In 2009, ASA changed the rules regarding unreported substitutions. I'm calling the plate at the Slow Pitch D/E Nationals, and the Coach of Team A properly reports Substitute #7 entering for #52 before he bats. I mark it and announce to Team B the change. We finish the inning, and Team A takes the field.

The second batter of the inning steps up, and the coach of Team B calls for time. He tells me that #52 is back on the field, and that he's an unreported substitute.

Me: "Thank you for telling me, coach. Because 52 hasn't made a play yet, he's now officially in the game."
Coach: "What?? He's supposed to be disqualified!"
Me: "Last year, yes. This year, they changed the rule, and he is now officially in the game."

Man, the coach damn near blew a gasket!

Can't say I blame him, though. It was a big rule change, and how many times has a coach gotten "oh, that rule changed this year" before?

He protested, my call was upheld, we moved on.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And who is to say that the batter who was supposed to bat wouldn't have done the same? OTOH, an out executed during any infraction isn't a presumption, but an event that actually occurred and earned by the offended team.

And if you think about it, there is no violation until protested, so presuming anything would be different is an unsubstantiated guess, at best.

Also, there is no violation until AFTER the incorrect batter has completed their turn at bat.

R1 on 1B no outs.
B3 bats for B2.
On first pitch, B3 swings and misses, and R1 steals 2B.
DC appeals BOO on B3 with 0-1 count.

EFFECT: No penalty, B2 bats and assumes current count on B3.

This could support keeping R1 on 2B regardless of outcome of BOO.

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Also, there is no violation until AFTER the incorrect batter has completed their turn at bat.

R1 on 1B no outs.
B3 bats for B2.
On first pitch, B3 swings and misses, and R1 steals 2B.
DC appeals BOO on B3 with 0-1 count.

EFFECT: No penalty, B2 bats and assumes current count on B3.

This could support keeping R1 on 2B regardless of outcome of BOO.

This was exactly my thought.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

This was exactly my thought.

Really? Exactly? Are you sure you want to be associated as an alike thinker with Tony C? In public?


J/K

[tcannizzo]

Where is the love man? I finally get one right and you throw me under an invisible bus?
At least you said "thinker" instead of "stinker"

It's all good.