Post game Convo - Appeal or not?

[MD Longhorn]

Bases loaded, no outs. (Thus begins the account of my 3rd ever triple play...)

Liner to the pitch who makes a great stab, PU clearly calls the out. Runners, however, do not return to tag up. R1 flies home, F1 flips to F2. R1 slides in "safely". F2 applies the tag anyway (at least a second later than R1 touching home), PU calls R1 out, F2 flips the ball back to the pitcher. Offensive coaches and parents are all yelling GO BACK, Defensive coaches and parents all yelling to throw back to 2nd base, as R2 is ON third base. The players all finally figure it out, F1 throws to F6 who barely beats R2 back to 2nd base.

Here's the question ... I was BU. To my mind, the throw home was an attempt to stop the runner from scoring - all the actions of the fielders tell me that it had not yet clicked in their heads that everyone had to return. PU did not say (to me) that he thought this was an appeal, just that the defense had tagged a runner that had to return.

Do YOU think this is a valid out at home? (On the field, no one questioned anything, this only came up in post-game) As PU, do you call this out? As BU, do you do anything to "fix" this, or even discuss with your partner on the field?

(As an aside, in the very next game we had almost the identical play although the 2nd out was cleaner, but the fielder dropped the ball that would have been the 3rd out)

[Andy]

If the defense doesn't give me some kind of indication that the tag on the runner sliding home is an appeal as opposed to just a "routine" attempt to get the out at the plate, then I don't recognize it as an appeal. i'm just going to rule on the play in front of me.

You stated it was clear that the runner crossed or touched the plate prior to being tagged, not to hijack the thread, but what if the runner had been tagged prior to touching the plate? Does this negate the need for an appeal?

[RKBUmp]

I would not have considered the throw home an appeal on the runner not having tagged. The play was an attempt to keep the runner from scoring at home plate, and based on what you said, the runner beat the throw home and the tag. She should have been ruled safe until properly appealed.

You can approach your partner and discuss the play with him and what you felt should have been ruled, but you cant do anything to make him change the call.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

You stated it was clear that the runner crossed or touched the plate prior to being tagged, not to hijack the thread, but what if the runner had been tagged prior to touching the plate? Does this negate the need for an appeal?

Of course it does.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

As BU, do you do anything to "fix" this, or even discuss with your partner on the field?

Do you want your partner coming to you when he thinks you kicked a call?

It was your partner's call. Right or wrong, bad judgment or not, it isn't your call. You don't know what your partner saw or what you DIDN'T see. Don't say anything until your partner asks for your input. Sometimes we have to live with our calls.

However, if your partner asks for help, have an opinion, and don't be afraid to share it.

Call in your area, observe all areas.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Do you want your partner coming to you when he thinks you kicked a call?

It was your partner's call. Right or wrong, bad judgment or not, it isn't your call. You don't know what your partner saw or what you DIDN'T see. Don't say anything until your partner asks for your input. Sometimes we have to live with our calls.

However, if your partner asks for help, have an opinion, and don't be afraid to share it.

Call in your area, observe all areas.

There's a big difference from a missed call and a mistaken ruling. I assumed during the game that he had reason to believe this was an appeal, so I said nothing - didn't even think about it really. You say that I didn't know what my partner saw or what I didn't see... and that's EXACTLY right, which is why I said nothing. Heck, for all I know from 80 feet away, the runner never touched home and he was simply calling the out for that.

It wasn't until post game that it came up that he didn't call the out because he thought it was an appeal, but rather because they had tagged a runner who "had to return", but when I asked if he thought the defense knew, at that moment, that she had to return, he said no.

That makes this a rules mistake - something we SHOULD correct - and not just a judgement error. But of course, I didn't know it was a rules mistake at the time.

Which is why I thought this worth discussing!

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

There's a big difference from a missed call and a mistaken ruling. I assumed during the game that he had reason to believe this was an appeal, so I said nothing - didn't even think about it really. You say that I didn't know what my partner saw or what I didn't see... and that's EXACTLY right, which is why I said nothing. Heck, for all I know from 80 feet away, the runner never touched home and he was simply calling the out for that.

It wasn't until post game that it came up that he didn't call the out because he thought it was an appeal, but rather because they had tagged a runner who "had to return", but when I asked if he thought the defense knew, at that moment, that she had to return, he said no.

That makes this a rules mistake - something we SHOULD correct - and not just a judgement error. But of course, I didn't know it was a rules mistake at the time.

Which is why I thought this worth discussing!

Is it the BU's responsibility to fix this problem or is it the offended coach's responsiblity to address it with the PU?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Is it the BU's responsibility to fix this problem or is it the offended coach's responsiblity to address it with the PU?

That's a good question. Do we correct an error (rules, not judgement!) our partner makes in other cases? If your partner calls an infield fly with either runners on the wrong bases or the wrong number of outs, and it's not caught, do you fix it? If your partner rules the wrong offensive player out after a batter's inferference call, do you fix it? If your partner rules an out on a player who could not bat in her proper spot because she was on base after a BOO is not caught - do you fix it? If your partner awards 2nd base on a thrown ball that goes out of play because the runner was retreating toward 1st when it was thrown, do you fix it.

I say yes to all of these.

The issue, though, was that I didn't really know it was a rules mistake until far far too late.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

That's a good question. Do we correct an error (rules, not judgement!) our partner makes in other cases? If your partner calls an infield fly with either runners on the wrong bases or the wrong number of outs, and it's not caught, do you fix it? If your partner rules the wrong offensive player out after a batter's inferference call, do you fix it? If your partner rules an out on a player who could not bat in her proper spot because she was on base after a BOO is not caught - do you fix it? If your partner awards 2nd base on a thrown ball that goes out of play because the runner was retreating toward 1st when it was thrown, do you fix it.

I say yes to all of these.

The issue, though, was that I didn't really know it was a rules mistake until far far too late.

That is exactly my point. You didn't know it was a rule interp problem - you thought it was bad judgment. I don't think you want to approach your partner with the 'bad judgment' comment. Nor do I think you want to stop the game to ask "What did you have there?". That should be the OC's job. Agreed, the other instances you mention are visible, public rule errors and should be corrected. But in your scenario, you don't have that at the time of the play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

That is exactly my point. You didn't know it was a rule interp problem - you thought it was bad judgment. I don't think you want to approach your partner with the 'bad judgment' comment. Nor do I think you want to stop the game to ask "What did you have there?". That should be the OC's job. Agreed, the other instances you mention are visible, public rule errors and should be corrected. But in your scenario, you don't have that at the time of the play.

Makes sense... (for the record, I never thought it was bad judgement - I just assumed there was something I didn't see.)

[EsqUmp]

If you KNOW that your partner misapplied a rule, you have a duty to confer with your partner and get it right.

The original post is more difficult because it may have involved both/either judgment and/or misapplication of a rule.

Umpires can't let a game go on with misapplication of rules. We are there to prevent that.

[x-tremeump]

"As BU, do you do anything to "fix" this, or even discuss with your partner on the field"?



I was not there, Just for fun BU & PU get together, How do you fix this ?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by xtreamump

"As BU, do you do anything to "fix" this, or even discuss with your partner on the field"?



I was not there, Just for fun BU & PU get together, How do you fix this ?

Great question.

OK, say coach asked PU to check with me and we ended up discussing this one on the field, and say this is a different partner - generally here if PU is asked to ask BU for help, HE drives the conversation and it's usually more direct than "what did you see"... but I digress...

BU could ask PU if he was calling the girl out because she was tagged before touching home, or if he was calling her out because he thought it was an appeal. This is similar to how the conversation post game went. His answer was, "Well, neither. I called her out because she had to return to third after the ball was caught, but she was sitting right on the plate when I called her out." If he said this on the field, then we could have had the rules discussion which might have fixed the error.