My first post back.

[Chess Ref]

I stopped umping to go to grad school-and that is now wrapping up .

So had my first weekend of ASA ball and it went pretty smooth. It was fun to get back out there. The weather was perfect and I got to work with two vets who know what they're doing. That helped for making my first weekend back go real smoothly.

I was doing the 12U's and had this happen...

A really slow, arc ridden change up comes in-a little inside- and the batter does this token- minor twist- get out of the way of the ball move. Ball hits her. I DON'T award 1B. Minor grief from coach, but not much.

In hindsight, I couldn't figure out if a token move is good enough or if it has to be a legimate move to get out of the way.

Would you have awarded 1B or not?

[RKBUmp]

Its entirely your judgement as to wether to batter made a legitimate attempt to avoid being hit. I have had numerous cases where if the batter hadnt moved at all they would not have been hit, but they have been coached to roll their shoulder and back to the ball. By doing so they actually turn into the path of the ball and get hit. Based on your description and a slow arcing change up, no I probably would not award 1st on that.

[EsqUmp]

It's always hard to tell without seeing the actual play (but hey, this is only a forum), but it seems like you could have given her 1st base. The ball belongs over or near the plate. The batter belongs in the batter's box. Unless the batter just stands there and either intentionally moves into the ball or intentionally does attempt to get out of the way of a ball that anyone could have avoided, I give the batter 1st base. I haven't gotten much grief over the years on this issue. The pitcher is more at fault than the batter in your case.

The batter also has the right to move and get hit somewhere other than if she hadn't moved. If the batter can't get out of the way and chooses to get hit in her lower back rather than in the ribs, I still have a hit by pitch.

I know your post addresses ASA. I would like to see more codes switch to the NCAA rule. I think that NCAA rules more in accordance with fair play and how most umpires enforce the rule (whether their code says they are technically correct or not).

[3afan]

I was told this this weekend ----> whether or not the girl makes any effort to get out of the way, if the ball is in the batter's box, then give her first because the pitch has no business being in the batters box ...... if not, the she needs to do something

not saying thats right or wrong, but an interesting perspective

[mv7267]

and the batter does this token- minor twist- get out of the way of the ball move.

Good enough for me. Dead ball, take your base.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by 3afan

I was told this this weekend ----> whether or not the girl makes any effort to get out of the way, if the ball is in the batter's box, then give her first because the pitch has no business being in the batters box ...... if not, the she needs to do something

not saying thats right or wrong, but an interesting perspective

That is not an ASA thing.

[3afan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That is not an ASA thing.

true, true ... didn't say it was

[MD Longhorn]

Once again, "She was only doing what she's supposed to do" rears it's ugly head. The rules do not say that.

When in doubt, I believe most umpires (self included) award the base. The sitch in the OP is a perfect example of when we shouldn't. Turning to minimize the pain on a pitch that can't be avoided is one thing. Turning to get hit by a slow pitch that is completely avoidable (and worse, turning to get hit by a pitch that was not going to hit her in the first place) should not be awarded a base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Once again, "She was only doing what she's supposed to do" rears it's ugly head. The rules do not say that.

When in doubt, I believe most umpires (self included) award the base. The sitch in the OP is a perfect example of when we shouldn't. Turning to minimize the pain on a pitch that can't be avoided is one thing. Turning to get hit by a slow pitch that is completely avoidable (and worse, turning to get hit by a pitch that was not going to hit her in the first place) should not be awarded a base.

Does the age matter to you (understanding what avoid is about)?

[Andy]

I am of the belief that ANY type of move to avoid being hit by the pitch qualifies as an attempt, and that includes freezing in the batter's box.

As the players get a little older, they get a little more craftier about sticking a knee or elbow out there on an inside pitch in an attempt to get on base. At the younger levels, my experience is that the players are still somewhat "scared" of being hit and will do whatever they can to avoid an errant pitch.

I, too, like the NCAA change this year. One of my mentors gave me this perspective several years ago.

Why do we require the batter to "make an attempt" to avoid a pitched ball that is not where it is supposed to be in the first place? In essance, the offense has to make up for the defense's mistake in order to be rewarded.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Andy

Why do we require the batter to "make an attempt" to avoid a pitched ball that is not where it is supposed to be in the first place? In essance, the offense has to make up for the defense's mistake in order to be rewarded.

Probably because of baseball players like Ernie Pantusso.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Does the age matter to you (understanding what avoid is about)?

Sure.

I think the default is award the base. I'm not awarding the base only in cases where it's OBVIOUS that the batter (including whatever information I have that is relevant - speed of pitch, ability/age of batter, did the ball bounce, etc) intentionally failed to avoid the pitch. Freezing in fear or tensing to absorb the hit (as a lot of the younger ones will do) is not intentionally failing to avoid the pitch. Seeing the ball coming in, relaxing and watching it plunk your ankle IS - no base. Leaning in to put an elbow or knee in the way of a ball that was not going to hit the batter IS - no base.

This happened Saturday - batter put her knee out to get hit. no base ... and no argument at all, not even from her own parents.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by 3afan

true, true ... didn't say it was

But I believe you were saying the game being played was........

[robbie]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Sure.

I think the default is award the base. I'm not awarding the base only in cases where it's OBVIOUS that the batter (including whatever information I have that is relevant - speed of pitch, ability/age of batter, did the ball bounce, etc) intentionally failed to avoid the pitch. Freezing in fear or tensing to absorb the hit (as a lot of the younger ones will do) is not intentionally failing to avoid the pitch. Seeing the ball coming in, relaxing and watching it plunk your ankle IS - no base. Leaning in to put an elbow or knee in the way of a ball that was not going to hit the batter IS - no base.

This happened Saturday - batter put her knee out to get hit. no base ... and no argument at all, not even from her own parents.

I argee the default to to award.
When NOT awarding, I believe it requires (For good practices) a very quick and decisive call.
I go with "DEAD BALL, BATTER STAY RIGHT HERE!" as I point to her batter's box. That may or may not require an explanation, but you were clearly making an immediate rulling based on gut at the time.

I had this is a 16U champ game one time. Coach came out and asked for me to check with partners. (Yes, I know - no need, but as our "be accommodating gesture" i did confer with partners.) They both said "I would not have called that." I simply said - I DID call it. We broke and I announced "CALL STANDS" and we played on. No issues.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by robbie

I argee the default to to award.
When NOT awarding, I believe it requires (For good practices) a very quick and decisive call.
I go with "DEAD BALL, BATTER STAY RIGHT HERE!" as I point to her batter's box. That may or may not require an explanation, but you were clearly making an immediate rulling based on gut at the time.

I agree completely.