What do you have?

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

Why then do we allow batting out of order to happen? I have seen games where for some strange reason I know who should be batting after a particular batter. If the incorrect batter comes up to bat and we know they are incorrect, do we tell them or the coach or the wrong batter that they shouldn't be up? I don't. I believe this is coaching. I guess this is different than the OP.
Dave

There is a blurred line between "preventative officiating" and "coaching."

I think that a lot of people "prevent" the problem because they are helping the team out. What they don't realize is that they are pissing off the other team who was looking forward to getting the benefit of knowing the rules and protesting the game. I lean more and more toward letting the teams screw it up. They think we screw up all the time. Let the screw up and maybe a few more of them will be humbled a bit.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

There is a blurred line between "preventative officiating" and "coaching."

I think that a lot of people "prevent" the problem because they are helping the team out. What they don't realize is that they are pissing off the other team who was looking forward to getting the benefit of knowing the rules and protesting the game. I lean more and more toward letting the teams screw it up. They think we screw up all the time. Let the screw up and maybe a few more of them will be humbled a bit.

I understand your point and have had this debate with numerous people. An overwhelming majority would rather know they are making a mistake before they make it than after. Not one person said, "Let then screw up so I can appeal and get their player out of the game."

I am in favor of telling the coach at the time that what they are about to do is illegal and then let them decide. If they want to break the rules at that point, that is on them.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

There is a blurred line between "preventative officiating" and "coaching."

Yes.

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Let the screw up and maybe a few more of them will be humbled a bit.

No.

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

They think we screw up all the time.

Generalization from a specific.

[CecilOne]

If a coach reports a change which is not allowed, it is my responsibility to reject it. That is part of why changes are reported.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

no, it isnt

Actually, yes, it is.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

actually, no it isnt. there are provisions that address coaching errors. i may try to prod them in the right direction but im not there to give favor to either coach

There are rules regarding coaching errors, but if a coach tries to give me an illegal substitute, I'm going to head it off at the pass before it becomes a big fustercluck.

That's something you can and should prevent.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

i agree there is something you 'can' do. i dont agree there is something 'should' do. it certainly cant become a fustercluck if you know how how address the error. its not rocket science

So then what would you do if given an illegal substitution?

If you're just going to sit back and watch the fustercluck begin, then you're just there to collect a paycheck.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

that's your perspective and assumption. i would certainly ask if he's sure he wants to do that, however im not there babysit or coddle the coaches. they are supposed to know the rules as i am. again, its only a fustercluck if your'e one those ' scratch you head with a pencil and mutter oh geez now what?' kind of umpires. i sir. am not. im prepared to handle any situation that arrises

So you're saying that you wouldn't inform the coach that what s/he's asking to do is not legal?

And yes, that is my perspective and my not-so-humble opinion. I won't go out of my way to save a coach from him/herself, but I also won't let this happen. That's a fustercluck that never ends well.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by umpire12

no, it isnt

Let me make this real simple for you as it pertains to ASA. And this is the "official" line, has been covered at numerous national, regional and state-level clinics from more than qualified clinicians:

You never take a change that you know is not legal.

You can do with it what you please, but there is no denying this statement is absolutely accurate. It is part of Game Management and Line-up Card Maintenance.

If you like, I will ask the NFHS rep for my area tonight and I'm willing to bet I will get the same answer.

[NSABill]

I am probably one of the elder (chronologically) umps lurking.

At the higher levels, I have actually had coaches purposely try or had to do illegal moves with their lineup. I have had them tell me that they know what they are doing is illegal but they are doing it anyway. Keep your mouth shut. It is the job of the other coach to catch them. You can not tell them they may not do it. If they do not do this, they may have to forfeit.
I would just ask them rather strongly: "Are you sure you want to do this coach?" Then go about my business.

I guess it may be dependent at what level you are talking though.
I am all for preventive umpiring but you can only intercede so much.
You can not coach for them.

If you can sort of steer away from a cluster, it would probably be wise but sometimes you have to keep your place.
Remember the old saying in ball is: :"It ain't cheating if you don't get caught."

I guess this is a "sticky wicket."

[MD Longhorn]

What do you have and how do you handle it? ASA rules apply.

Hmmm... Love those that answer a questions completely wrong, defend their inane position until their are beaten to submission, then retreat to the "they don't do it that way in the ABCDE league". Don't come on here, answer an ASA question with blatant stupidity and then claim the reason for your answer is that other groups don't agree with ASA.

(And incidentally, all but NCAA and professional that I've come across subscribe to the "prevent a disqualification" mentality at the very least... and in many cases, simply "prevent the foul/rule breakage/whatever if you can" mentality.)

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

(And incidentally, all but NCAA and professional that I've come across subscribe to the "prevent a disqualification" mentality at the very least... and in many cases, simply "prevent the foul/rule breakage/whatever if you can" mentality.)

You can subtract NCAA from that list, too. The SUP, as well as the CCA manual, has stated the same philosophy as others, do not knowingly allow an illegal change. That isn't coaching, it is preventative officiating. By the vast majority opinion.

Sounds to me like NSA stands alone, if that is even their actual philosphy.

[NSABill]

Did not realize this was ASA specific.
I must admit I was not giving an ASA sanctioned answer.
As for ASA, I am no expert.

Respectfully,

Bill

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by umpire12

i agree...i made a mistake by not realizing the question was ASA specific...however, calling someone blatantly stupid is uncalled for. i may not always be right but i would not lower myself to your level by casting aspersions. that was downright rude

Had I called you that, I'd apologize. I did not.

Even smart people say things that are blatantly stupid sometimes - doesn't make them blatantly stupid any more than their being smart makes their stupid comment something other than stupid.