What do you have?

shipwreck · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 12, 2012, 08:58pm

Why then do we allow batting out of order to happen? I have seen games where for some strange reason I know who should be batting after a particular batter. If the incorrect batter comes up to bat and we know they are incorrect, do we tell them or the coach or the wrong batter that they shouldn't be up? I don't. I believe this is coaching. I guess this is different than the OP.
Dave

IRISHMAFIA · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 12, 2012, 09:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by shipwreck

Why then do we allow batting out of order to happen? I have seen games where for some strange reason I know who should be batting after a particular batter. If the incorrect batter comes up to bat and we know they are incorrect, do we tell them or the coach or the wrong batter that they shouldn't be up? I don't. I believe this is coaching. I guess this is different than the OP.
Dave

Different issue. BOO involves players who are legally in the game and nothing involving the umpire.

A player attempting to illegally re-enter the game or not reporting is a direct attempt to circumvent the rules which includes the umpire's involvement and maintenance of the line up.

EsqUmp · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 08:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by shipwreck

Why then do we allow batting out of order to happen? I have seen games where for some strange reason I know who should be batting after a particular batter. If the incorrect batter comes up to bat and we know they are incorrect, do we tell them or the coach or the wrong batter that they shouldn't be up? I don't. I believe this is coaching. I guess this is different than the OP.
Dave

There is a blurred line between "preventative officiating" and "coaching."

I think that a lot of people "prevent" the problem because they are helping the team out. What they don't realize is that they are pissing off the other team who was looking forward to getting the benefit of knowing the rules and protesting the game. I lean more and more toward letting the teams screw it up. They think we screw up all the time. Let the screw up and maybe a few more of them will be humbled a bit.

MNBlue · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 10:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

There is a blurred line between "preventative officiating" and "coaching."

I think that a lot of people "prevent" the problem because they are helping the team out. What they don't realize is that they are pissing off the other team who was looking forward to getting the benefit of knowing the rules and protesting the game. I lean more and more toward letting the teams screw it up. They think we screw up all the time. Let the screw up and maybe a few more of them will be humbled a bit.

I understand your point and have had this debate with numerous people. An overwhelming majority would rather know they are making a mistake before they make it than after. Not one person said, "Let then screw up so I can appeal and get their player out of the game."

I am in favor of telling the coach at the time that what they are about to do is illegal and then let them decide. If they want to break the rules at that point, that is on them.

CecilOne · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 11:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

There is a blurred line between "preventative officiating" and "coaching."

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Let the screw up and maybe a few more of them will be humbled a bit.

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

They think we screw up all the time.

Generalization from a specific.

CecilOne · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 11:45am

If a coach reports a change which is not allowed, it is my responsibility to reject it. That is part of why changes are reported.

NCASAUmp · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 01:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpire12

no, it isnt

Actually, yes, it is.

NCASAUmp · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 01:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpire12

actually, no it isnt. there are provisions that address coaching errors. i may try to prod them in the right direction but im not there to give favor to either coach

There are rules regarding coaching errors, but if a coach tries to give me an illegal substitute, I'm going to head it off at the pass before it becomes a big fustercluck.

That's something you can and should prevent.

NCASAUmp · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpire12

i agree there is something you 'can' do. i dont agree there is something 'should' do. it certainly cant become a fustercluck if you know how how address the error. its not rocket science

So then what would you do if given an illegal substitution?

If you're just going to sit back and watch the fustercluck begin, then you're just there to collect a paycheck.

IRISHMAFIA · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 05:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpire12

no, it isnt

Let me make this real simple for you as it pertains to ASA. And this is the "official" line, has been covered at numerous national, regional and state-level clinics from more than qualified clinicians:

You never take a change that you know is not legal.

You can do with it what you please, but there is no denying this statement is absolutely accurate. It is part of Game Management and Line-up Card Maintenance.

If you like, I will ask the NFHS rep for my area tonight and I'm willing to bet I will get the same answer.

NSABill · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 05:54pm

I am probably one of the elder (chronologically) umps lurking.

At the higher levels, I have actually had coaches purposely try or had to do illegal moves with their lineup. I have had them tell me that they know what they are doing is illegal but they are doing it anyway. Keep your mouth shut. It is the job of the other coach to catch them. You can not tell them they may not do it. If they do not do this, they may have to forfeit.
I would just ask them rather strongly: "Are you sure you want to do this coach?" Then go about my business.

I guess it may be dependent at what level you are talking though.
I am all for preventive umpiring but you can only intercede so much.
You can not coach for them.

If you can sort of steer away from a cluster, it would probably be wise but sometimes you have to keep your place.
Remember the old saying in ball is: :"It ain't cheating if you don't get caught."

I guess this is a "sticky wicket."

MD Longhorn · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 13, 2012, 06:05pm

Quote:

What do you have and how do you handle it? ASA rules apply.

Hmmm... Love those that answer a questions completely wrong, defend their inane position until their are beaten to submission, then retreat to the "they don't do it that way in the ABCDE league". Don't come on here, answer an ASA question with blatant stupidity and then claim the reason for your answer is that other groups don't agree with ASA.

(And incidentally, all but NCAA and professional that I've come across subscribe to the "prevent a disqualification" mentality at the very least... and in many cases, simply "prevent the foul/rule breakage/whatever if you can" mentality.)