What do you have?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rwest

A decent umpire would notice this and try to prevent it. "Coach, you're sure you want to do this? Baker can't re-enter legally." If the coach insists do we allow him to and then wait for the protest? In ASA the umpire is not allowed to rule on this until a team appeals. I believe all we can legally do is inform the coach of the infraction and if he insists allow it. Maybe we could do so in such a loud voice as to give a clue to the other team? Or just inform the other team "Baker is re-entering again." and hope the other team realizes what has just happened. Maybe put a slight emphasis on the word "Again". I'm joking of course. We can't do anything to tip off the other team of an infraction that must be appealed by the defense.

Never going to permit something like this to occur if I know it shouldn't and is a violation. Coach doesn't like it, I can always talk to the new head coach.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Never going to permit something like this to occur if I know it shouldn't and is a violation. Coach doesn't like it, I can always talk to the new head coach.

Most codes to encourage umpires to prevent violations. I get that. But where is the responsibility for the coaches' to do what is correct? Have you or any other umpires you know made the incorrect ruling or not permitted something that was legal?

I have seen this far too often. Of course, shame on the official for not knowing the rules, but I'm realistic and as we see here on the forum, not every ruling is correct, either because we don't know it, shoot from the hip, or confuse codes.

More than once I've had to address lineup changes with an umpire who didn't allow a team to have the DP play defense and leave the Flex in the game.

I like to prevent headaches whenever possible in most circumstances. But why do we go out of our way to help a coach not commit a violation when they coach questions our strike zone, judgment, rules knowledge, etc.? The quicker the coach is to question our calls, the quicker they probably are to ask for our help on a rule.

The rule book takes care of violations by allowing a protest and the implication of penalties.

Many of us say, "Well, I'm comfortable doing it because I know the rules." The problem is that there are so many others who say that who really do not know the rules.

Saying something like, "Coach, it's your decision, but you may want to consult with your assistant and/or the rule book before doing that" usually makes the coach question themselves strongly enough that they just don't make the change. I will never tell a coach, "No, you can't do that" if they insist though. Umpires aren't there to bail out coaches for dumb decisions. They'll learn soon enough.

[shipwreck]

Why then do we allow batting out of order to happen? I have seen games where for some strange reason I know who should be batting after a particular batter. If the incorrect batter comes up to bat and we know they are incorrect, do we tell them or the coach or the wrong batter that they shouldn't be up? I don't. I believe this is coaching. I guess this is different than the OP.
Dave

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

Why then do we allow batting out of order to happen? I have seen games where for some strange reason I know who should be batting after a particular batter. If the incorrect batter comes up to bat and we know they are incorrect, do we tell them or the coach or the wrong batter that they shouldn't be up? I don't. I believe this is coaching. I guess this is different than the OP.
Dave

Different issue. BOO involves players who are legally in the game and nothing involving the umpire.

A player attempting to illegally re-enter the game or not reporting is a direct attempt to circumvent the rules which includes the umpire's involvement and maintenance of the line up.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

Why then do we allow batting out of order to happen? I have seen games where for some strange reason I know who should be batting after a particular batter. If the incorrect batter comes up to bat and we know they are incorrect, do we tell them or the coach or the wrong batter that they shouldn't be up? I don't. I believe this is coaching. I guess this is different than the OP.
Dave

There is a blurred line between "preventative officiating" and "coaching."

I think that a lot of people "prevent" the problem because they are helping the team out. What they don't realize is that they are pissing off the other team who was looking forward to getting the benefit of knowing the rules and protesting the game. I lean more and more toward letting the teams screw it up. They think we screw up all the time. Let the screw up and maybe a few more of them will be humbled a bit.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

There is a blurred line between "preventative officiating" and "coaching."

I think that a lot of people "prevent" the problem because they are helping the team out. What they don't realize is that they are pissing off the other team who was looking forward to getting the benefit of knowing the rules and protesting the game. I lean more and more toward letting the teams screw it up. They think we screw up all the time. Let the screw up and maybe a few more of them will be humbled a bit.

I understand your point and have had this debate with numerous people. An overwhelming majority would rather know they are making a mistake before they make it than after. Not one person said, "Let then screw up so I can appeal and get their player out of the game."

I am in favor of telling the coach at the time that what they are about to do is illegal and then let them decide. If they want to break the rules at that point, that is on them.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

There is a blurred line between "preventative officiating" and "coaching."

Yes.

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Let the screw up and maybe a few more of them will be humbled a bit.

No.

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

They think we screw up all the time.

Generalization from a specific.

[CecilOne]

If a coach reports a change which is not allowed, it is my responsibility to reject it. That is part of why changes are reported.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by umpire12

no, it isnt

Actually, yes, it is.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by umpire12

no, it isnt

Let me make this real simple for you as it pertains to ASA. And this is the "official" line, has been covered at numerous national, regional and state-level clinics from more than qualified clinicians:

You never take a change that you know is not legal.

You can do with it what you please, but there is no denying this statement is absolutely accurate. It is part of Game Management and Line-up Card Maintenance.

If you like, I will ask the NFHS rep for my area tonight and I'm willing to bet I will get the same answer.