Another ASA test question

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

I would not agree with calling home plate the priority in that situation. I think that 3rd base is the priority.

Which one puts a number on the board? Where is a missed call going to cause a greater effect on the score? Certainly not 3B.

Let's take care of 3rd base before we pour all of our energy into standing around home plate for a "maybe" call.

As opposed to the BU standing in the middle of the field waiting on the very likely event that the runner will stop and return to 2nd?

If there was an additional runner on 3rd base, obviously this would change my opinion.

No kidding. If there was a runner on 3rd, we wouldn't be discussing this mechanic.

Realistically speaking, if R2 is in a "tagging up" position, the odds on R2 scoring are poor.

I would prefer to have the base umpire get a good position to watch the tag and have the plate umpire be up the line in foul territory awaiting the throw. Should the play develop, the plate umpire can step into the calling position and make the call. If the plate umpire sees that the play won't develop (either no throw or an obviously errant throw), then the plate umpire can retreat to home plate. The plate umpire retreats in a similar fashion when there are runners on 1st and 2nd on the same type of play, so I don't accept "we don't want the plate umpire to have to run back home" to be a valid explanation.

You making up ASA's interpretation as you go along? Who said anything about not wanting the umpire to return to the plate? Obviously, that is going to happen at some point, just as any umpire may have to reverse field when there are fewer umpires than bases. To the best of my knowledge, it has always been ASA's stand to get an umpire a base ahead when possible. In this case, it is possible.

I know that this is not what ASA has taught over the years. After years of using this mechanic in non-ASA games, I've found it to be beneficial and a better use of both umpires. It's at least worth some consideration.

Well, I believe that would also include NFHS & ISF.

I don't see the problem with the BU covering 3rd unless s/he isn't capable and if that's the case, s/he shouldn't be on the field which isn't that big to start.

You remind me of an umpire I worked with at a National in Lakeland who, after finishing a clinic go out and tell us (his crew), that we didn't need to rotate on the 3 umpire system. After all, he was a UIC somewhere (according to him) and he knew better than the UIC. We basically told him to do whatever he wanted, we were working the game by the book.

[EsqUmp]

You're attitude is dismissive. That's a dangerous state of mind for an umpire. The time it took you to reply tells me that you didn't take the comments under any valid consideration.

Your implication that I am making up my own mechanics or inventing this as the game goes along is a blatantly false accusation. You don't appear to be illiterate, although your reading comprehension skill do seem to be rather elementary.

I clearly stated that these are not ASA mechanics. They are, however, NCAA, PONY and many some state organizations' mechanics.

You seem to be one of those people I like to label an "ASA clone." You never had an independant thought on mechanics. Rather you take the ASA manual like a religious zealot might take the bible. You would also bash any association that would recommend trying mechanic "X" because ASA did mechanic "Y." Then if ASA actually got out of the 1930's and updated their mechanic to "Y" you would preach "Y" without hesitation because it all of a sudden became gospel because it was written in a book with ASA written on.

Without actually analyzing the mechanic or giving it a shot in a game that isn't ASA controlled, you shouldn't me so quick to knock it. I was originally trained under the ASA mechanic. I was, however, opened up to the alternative mechanic that I wrote about here. After 3500 games, I am endorsing the one where we put both umpires to work and have the plate umpire cover 3rd base. Experience, not ignorance or dismissiveness, has convinced me that this is a better use of the umpires.

I've never had a problem tracking back home when necessary. That's because I can read the play and I'm not stuck in the mud. I can read how the ball is fielded and thrown. If I need to track back home, I can do so without difficultly. I can track back home as quickly as a base umpire standing near 2nd base can move to 3rd for the play there (under ASA mechanics).

What is your basis for believing that this is the mechanic in ISF? Do you own an ISF manual or do you merely through that comment out there to bolster your position?

By your/ASA's statement that home plate is the priority base, wouldn't 2nd base be a priority base over 1st base since it's closer to home. While I am being somewhat facetious and wouldn't actually recommend doing this, why not put the base umpire at 2nd base to start the inning since the BR may go for a double and 2nd base is more important than 1st base?

Interesting that NCAA endorses the plate umpire covering 3rd base even in their game which includes some of the best and fastest players in all of softball. Apparently their experience is that the plate umpire is mentally capable of reading a play and physically capable of getting home for another play. Perhaps their philosophy is stronger than ASA's in that they believe it's best to get the first call right than speculating on a possible secondary play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Last one and then I'm done with you

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

You're attitude is dismissive. That's a dangerous state of mind for an umpire. The time it took you to reply tells me that you didn't take the comments under any valid consideration.

We are discussing ASA mechanics. You stated your personal preferences, and that is okay for whatever games you prefer to work other than ASA. I offered my opinions.

Your implication that I am making up my own mechanics or inventing this as the game goes along is a blatantly false accusation. You don't appear to be illiterate, although your reading comprehension skill do seem to be rather elementary.

My reading comprehension? It wasn't an implication, but a citation. You stated The plate umpire retreats in a similar fashion when there are runners on 1st and 2nd on the same type of play, so I don't accept "we don't want the plate umpire to have to run back home" to be a valid explanation. Not only did you attempt to alter the scenario to fit your argument, you provided a citation that hasn't been offered, nor suggested, in the thread, umpire manual or any classes/clinics I've attended or conducted.

You seem to be one of those people I like to label an "ASA clone." You never had an independant thought on mechanics. Rather you take the ASA manual like a religious zealot might take the bible. You would also bash any association that would recommend trying mechanic "X" because ASA did mechanic "Y." Then if ASA actually got out of the 1930's and updated their mechanic to "Y" you would preach "Y" without hesitation because it all of a sudden became gospel because it was written in a book with ASA written on.

You are clueless as to what I believe, have done and continue to do. Like you I routinely question mechanics from all, just as you have. It is not unusual for myself and a member of the NUS to butt heads. The problem here is that you asked an ASA-specific question to which you didn't like the answer. And I don't care that you have your own opinion, nothing wrong with that, but please don't go around making claims that are misleading. A lot of people read this board and misinformation is not something that helps an umpire.

Without actually analyzing the mechanic or giving it a shot in a game that isn't ASA controlled, you shouldn't me so quick to knock it. I was originally trained under the ASA mechanic. I was, however, opened up to the alternative mechanic that I wrote about here. After 3500 games, I am endorsing the one where we put both umpires to work and have the plate umpire cover 3rd base. Experience, not ignorance or dismissiveness, has convinced me that this is a better use of the umpires.

You ever work with BillyP? Again, you have no idea as to the manner in which I deal with mechanics. I have worked "alternative" mechanics in an ASA national. I have introduced a proposed mechanic change to ASA. I have used it and had others test run it (including a member of this board) in championship play. I have been dressed down by KR for doing so.

I have been publicly corrected by a member of the NUS for suggesting an umpire place the call before given mechanics. I've had nice conversations with OKC about how too many of the NUS are taking the DVD to heart and not allowing for an umpire's adjustment to the play on the field. Like I said, you have no idea.

I've never had a problem tracking back home when necessary. That's because I can read the play and I'm not stuck in the mud. I can read how the ball is fielded and thrown. If I need to track back home, I can do so without difficultly. I can track back home as quickly as a base umpire standing near 2nd base can move to 3rd for the play there (under ASA mechanics).

What is your basis for believing that this is the mechanic in ISF? Do you own an ISF manual or do you merely through that comment out there to bolster your position?

I've got two world cups under my belt. You?

By your/ASA's statement that home plate is the priority base, wouldn't 2nd base be a priority base over 1st base since it's closer to home. While I am being somewhat facetious and wouldn't actually recommend doing this, why not put the base umpire at 2nd base to start the inning since the BR may go for a double and 2nd base is more important than 1st base?

You mean like ASA has already done in SP and only haven't done so in FP due to the need for the umpire to see IPs? Even better, why not bring U3 to the 3B side of 2B with a runner on 1B only? Oops!!! Don't look now, but that is me thinking outside the ASA-bible.

Interesting that NCAA endorses the plate umpire covering 3rd base even in their game which includes some of the best and fastest players in all of softball. Apparently their experience is that the plate umpire is mentally capable of reading a play and physically capable of getting home for another play. Perhaps their philosophy is stronger than ASA's in that they believe it's best to get the first call right than speculating on a possible secondary play.

And as has been repeatedly been noted on here and other boards, the NCAA has a single entity to address and endorses the 3-umpire game, demands it in many cases. And while I don't care for some of the mechanics, it is their game. I have used them all, still do in some games when and where appropriate. However, like in ASA, I will not use the mechanic for the sake of staying with the mechanic if the situation dictates otherwise and that means losing the call or placing myself in the middle of the play.

You know what I love? People who think they have "discovered" new ways of doing things as if Moses brought them down the mountain. In reality, many of these mechanics have been tested and used in the past in different games. Some work, some don't, but the success or failure often has nothing to do with the idea, but whether each can be applied to a certain game and with certain group of umpires. As Billy P stated often, it shouldn't be an advanced school for umpires, but a school for advanced umpiring. I agree, been there, done that. The only problem is that unless you are working with someone of equal ability and knowledge, those mechanics may often be useless.

Okay, I'm done pontificating. Say hi to JM

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by irishmafia

Say hi to jm

:d :d

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

You're attitude is dismissive. That's a dangerous state of mind for an umpire. The time it took you to reply tells me that you didn't take the comments under any valid consideration.

Your implication that I am making up my own mechanics or inventing this as the game goes along is a blatantly false accusation. You don't appear to be illiterate, although your reading comprehension skill do seem to be rather elementary.I clearly stated that these are not ASA mechanics. They are, however, NCAA, PONY and many some state organizations' mechanics.

You seem to be one of those people I like to label an "ASA clone." You never had an independant thought on mechanics. Rather you take the ASA manual like a religious zealot might take the bible. You would also bash any association that would recommend trying mechanic "X" because ASA did mechanic "Y." Then if ASA actually got out of the 1930's and updated their mechanic to "Y" you would preach "Y" without hesitation because it all of a sudden became gospel because it was written in a book with ASA written on.

Without actually analyzing the mechanic or giving it a shot in a game that isn't ASA controlled, you shouldn't me so quick to knock it. I was originally trained under the ASA mechanic. I was, however, opened up to the alternative mechanic that I wrote about here. After 3500 games, I am endorsing the one where we put both umpires to work and have the plate umpire cover 3rd base. Experience, not ignorance or dismissiveness, has convinced me that this is a better use of the umpires.

I've never had a problem tracking back home when necessary. That's because I can read the play and I'm not stuck in the mud. I can read how the ball is fielded and thrown. If I need to track back home, I can do so without difficultly. I can track back home as quickly as a base umpire standing near 2nd base can move to 3rd for the play there (under ASA mechanics).

What is your basis for believing that this is the mechanic in ISF? Do you own an ISF manual or do you merely through that comment out there to bolster your position?By your/ASA's statement that home plate is the priority base, wouldn't 2nd base be a priority base over 1st base since it's closer to home. While I am being somewhat facetious and wouldn't actually recommend doing this, why not put the base umpire at 2nd base to start the inning since the BR may go for a double and 2nd base is more important than 1st base?

Interesting that NCAA endorses the plate umpire covering 3rd base even in their game which includes some of the best and fastest players in all of softball. Apparently their experience is that the plate umpire is mentally capable of reading a play and physically capable of getting home for another play. Perhaps their philosophy is stronger than ASA's in that they believe it's best to get the first call right than speculating on a possible secondary play.

Personal insults and degradation have no place on any forum, let alone this one.

[SRW]

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Rather you take the ASA manual like a religious zealot might take the bible. You would also bash any association that would recommend trying mechanic "X" because ASA did mechanic "Y."

Holy cow... I usually have to go to political sites to read something as blatantly wrong as this statement.

What is your basis for believing that this is the mechanic in ISF? Do you own an ISF manual or do you merely through that comment out there to bolster your position?

And then you immediately outdo yourself. If you only knew. I suggest that Mr 86 posts gets to know everyone a little better before making judgments as to who knows what, who thinks what, and who has done what.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Holy cow... I usually have to go to political sites to read something as blatantly wrong as this statement.

And then you immediately outdo yourself. If you only knew. I suggest that Mr 86 posts gets to know everyone a little better before making judgments as to who knows what, who thinks what, and who has done what.

See, you miss a couple days and it's like coming back to the future.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by irishmafia

see, you miss a couple days and it's like coming back to the future. :d

+1