Parent asking a question

[greg21001]

As the title says, I'm just a parent looking to grip and also get some opinions. Dd played in a tournament this past weekend. It rained hard Friday night and Sat night, so the fields were pretty muddy. After about the 3-4 pitch of our first came the HP ump called timed because mud from the catchers glove flew into his eye. No big deal, so I thought. Next inning the same thing....after it happend the third time he told out catcher if she puts her glove in the mud again and he gets mud in his eye he is going to go inot the dug out and take about 10 mins to clean his eyes out and hes going to keep the clock running. Is there anything our catcher could have done to help the umpire out....???

I have learned from reading this forum that there is certain calls umpires have and the other umpire really isn't paying all that much attention to. What happened is that the FU has between 2 and 3 and we had a girl bunt. FU called her safe but the HP over ruled and said out. I'm pretty sure HP just can over turn on foot off the base but he said the throw just wasn't in time. Is that his call?

Thanks in advance.

[BretMan]

To blame the catcher for mud flying up, when you're playing on a muddy field, is idiotic. This is an example of game management and player interaction at it's worst. If you really think that the game conditions are unsafe, then you are the guy that can suspend the game!

No umpire should ever "overturn" another's call. If one umpire wants to ask his partner if he had something different, then he's free to do that. Then if he wants to change his call he may. But no umpire should ever just jump in, unsolicited, and change the other umpire's call. That's in the rule book and it's in our umpire manual. And, yes, the play at first base is the base umpire's call.

When you put these two incidents together, it adds up to an umpire that either needs some more training or some more experience...or that needs to find himself another hobby!

[MD Longhorn]

Sounds like you had an umpire with some issues here, but I'd also wonder about your coach. What was he doing when this call was changed? Why did he not protest - PU cannot BY RULE overrule BU on judgement alone. The judgement is not protestable, but the misapplication of the rule (the overruling) is. Also - how were you, the parent, aware of the conversation between PU and catcher - was this relayed to you by catcher ... could it have been exaggerated or twisted (I ask because I have a daughter that age, and it's a possibility). Was coach within hearing when that conversation took place?

If so, and I was coach, there's no question I'd be looking for a TD.

PS - please don't call the base umpire the FU. FU kind of means something else, doesn't it? He's the BU (or 1BU and 3BU if you have more than 1 out there).

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Why did he not protest - PU cannot BY RULE overrule BU on judgement alone. The judgement is not protestable, but the misapplication of the rule (the overruling) is.)

Not according to the note under Rule 9 covering protests. Failures of umpires to adhere to the guidelines of Rule 10 are not grounds for protest.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Not according to the note under Rule 9 covering protests. Failure of umpires to adhere to the guidelines of Rule 10 are not grounds for protest.

I see your point. However, BU says safe, PU says out, and it was BU's call originally. I'm coaching, my player's not getting off first base until BU tells me she has to go. By what rule is she out? Nothing in rules 1-9, and rule 10, while not protestable, doesn't support removing her from the bases anyway.

Umpires beware - I'm tell you right now that I'm not leaving the field until ejected here.

[greg21001]

i actually heard the PU tell our catcher this. I was sitting right at the backstop. The coach didn't here the conversation she was in the dugout. From my point of view there was alot of home cooking by the umps but thats just my point of view. The team we were playing was the team holding the tournament and the coach of the team was in the tent with the brackets and stuff unless his team was playing. I'm not sure if thats the norm but it seemed kinda odd to me. Odd that a coach of a team in a tournament could also be the tournament director.

in case it matters...USSSA

[MD Longhorn]

People bristle loudly over "home cooking" here. Best not bring that up. Suffice it to tell you that it is a LOT more rare than most fans believe, in that most umpires work all over, for multiple schools, teams, etc - and in almost every case, we REALLY don't care who wins. It's also a myth that we skew our decisions toward those that hire us --- frankly, there's more work than umpires in general. I don't know anyone that would favor a TD's team in particular just to stay on their good side to make it easier to find work.

As a fan, you're probably not aware that in ANY given game, there will be 10 to 20 (sometimes more) plays that are close enough that no matter what the call - the offended side will think the umpire blew it. You only notice, as a fan, the half that go against you. A fan on one side will insist that the umpire missed "at least 5 obvious calls" against us. A fan on the other side will say exactly the same thing. It's the nature of the game - and neither fan even notices the once that were close but went in their favor. And trust me ... you REALLY can't see what you need to see from the stands. If you could, we'd umpire from there.

That out of the way...

I will agree that it's uncomfortable (at best) to have a TD as a coach - it should really be avoided. Let someone else TD, especially when you're on the field.

At the very least, in your particular situation, the PU to F2 conversation should have been relayed to TD - at least after the game. He needs to know what he's got working for him. That was completely inappropriate.

During the game, however - when the overrule happened, your coach should have used the magic word. At the very least it would bring the inappropriateness of the overrule to TD's attention (yeah, he was there on the field, but given that he's chosen to take on both rules, he has to at least be aware that what happened was not appropriate... a TD who runs an unfair tourney is not going to get any returners, so even though he's opposing coach, he HAS to take the other coach seriously. Perhaps there was a UIC somewhere on premesis that could have done something to correct this erroneous decision.)

[BretMan]

My favorite was the time I had a tournament game with two teams from two different cities, neither of which I had ever seen before in my life and neither of which was from the city where I lived. But that didn't stop one of the coaches from accusing me of being a "homer" for the other team!

Needless to say, I set him straight real fast.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

People bristle loudly over "home cooking" here. Best not bring that up. Suffice it to tell you that it is a LOT more rare than most fans believe, in that most umpires work all over, for multiple schools, teams, etc - and in almost every case, we REALLY don't care who wins. It's also a myth that we skew our decisions toward those that hire us --- frankly, there's more work than umpires in general. I don't know anyone that would favor a TD's team in particular just to stay on their good side to make it easier to find work.

As a fan, you're probably not aware that in ANY given game, there will be 10 to 20 (sometimes more) plays that are close enough that no matter what the call - the offended side will think the umpire blew it. You only notice, as a fan, the half that go against you. A fan on one side will insist that the umpire missed "at least 5 obvious calls" against us. A fan on the other side will say exactly the same thing. It's the nature of the game - and neither fan even notices the once that were close but went in their favor. And trust me ... you REALLY can't see what you need to see from the stands. If you could, we'd umpire from there.

That out of the way...

I will agree that it's uncomfortable (at best) to have a TD as a coach - it should really be avoided. Let someone else TD, especially when you're on the field.

At the very least, in your particular situation, the PU to F2 conversation should have been relayed to TD - at least after the game. He needs to know what he's got working for him. That was completely inappropriate.

During the game, however - when the overrule happened, your coach should have used the magic word. At the very least it would bring the inappropriateness of the overrule to TD's attention (yeah, he was there on the field, but given that he's chosen to take on both rules, he has to at least be aware that what happened was not appropriate... a TD who runs an unfair tourney is not going to get any returners, so even though he's opposing coach, he HAS to take the other coach seriously. Perhaps there was a UIC somewhere on premesis that could have done something to correct this erroneous decision.)

Maybe it is just how tournaments are run where I am, but I couldn't care less about the TD when I umpire. Nor can the TD do a damn thing about calls on the field, or what umpire makes them. The umpires do not work for the TD; they all work for whatever UIC or association the TD hired.

Now, if I am the UIC, then I have to deal with the issues; and maybe address the TD so he can answer the teams or parents in the PC way. But all umpire issues or rules issues are handled by the UIC; the TD is limited to dealing with scheduling, brackets, player eligibility, and special tournament rules. If a TD even tried to deal with playing rules over the UIC, he would have fields without umpires; all of them, in fact.

[greg21001]

Thanks for all your replies. I usually just read this board to learn the rules a bit better. Just to lazy to actually read the rule book,LOL. I have usually seen a UIC but at this tournament i couldn't see one, not saying there wasn't one there.
Thanks again for your insight and I'm sure I will be here again asking for opinions.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Maybe it is just how tournaments are run where I am, but I couldn't care less about the TD when I umpire. Nor can the TD do a damn thing about calls on the field, or what umpire makes them. The umpires do not work for the TD; they all work for whatever UIC or association the TD hired.

Yes ... but the coach should not be approaching UIC - he should be addressing the TD on a problem like this.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

He's the BU (or 1BU and 3BU if you have more than 1 out there).

Or U1 and U3.

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

...
PS - please don't call the base umpire the FU. FU kind of means something else, doesn't it? He's the BU (or 1BU and 3BU if you have more than 1 out there).

Furman University?

The cheer goes:

FU one time
FU two times
FU all the time
Go Furman!

[BretMan]

As bad as it might sound to call one of the base umpires "FU", calling the plate umpire "PU" ain't exactly flattering!