8U rules conundrum

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Why indeed...

I work games in a fall league that has some pretty good competition for the older kids. They also have an 8U machine pitch division. I guess that some of the guys that were getting assigned to the 8U games complained about it, so the lady that runs the league decided to rotate the umpires through all the age divisions.

I really like working this league. They have nice fields, it's close to home, there's a laid back atmosphere and it's a chance to be out umpiring during a slow time of the year. But this week, I have to pay my penance...

My number came up and I get to work three 8U games on Sunday. I just hope that I can stay awake through the whole thing!

I've seen awful 8U ball ... and I've seen great 8U ball... the league closer to my home, just 20 miles east of where I was working, has REALLY good 8U ball - the allstar team that this league generates fares well at state every year (interesting considering the rotation of kids and coaches year to year... and also interesting considering these very same girls do NOT complete well at state 2 years later at 10U!); winning state a couple of times recently.

[BretMan]

If you consider the "placement" of runners the same as a "base award"...this rule creates the first example I can ever recall of a negative base award (when the runner isn't yet to the halfway line and gets sent backwards).

That doesn't seem very "rewarding".

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

If you consider the "placement" of runners the same as a "base award"...this rule creates the first example I can ever recall of a negative base award (when the runner isn't yet to the halfway line and gets sent backwards).

That doesn't seem very "rewarding".

Well that's not true at all. How many times to you have obstruction but only award the preceding base? All the time.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by BretMan

That's what I was getting at in my reply to youngump. There is a rule that says a runner may go back and correct a baserunning mistake if the ball becomes dead due to an overthrow or blocked ball. This was neither of those.

Doesn't this local rule in effect make it a dead ball same as a blocked ball, with award based on runner's location? They are adding a new form of blocked; controlled by pitcher in the circle.

Originally Posted by BretMan

Sure, I see the parallel. I also recall the thorough trouncing I got a few days ago when I suggested a parallel between a couple of other rules!

And I submit that we have to consider the most likely and consistent interpretation possible whenever there isn't a rule that covers a specific instance. It may be that the absence of a rule is intentional, to indicate there is NO ruling necessary, but we are required to use some logic when ruling on something simply not covered by rule.

Originally Posted by BretMan

When the runner touched home the second time (at the umpire's direction), her miss of the plate was corrected under the "last time by" theory. At that point, there were no appeals to be had.

Not on my game; last time by, a theory not particularly or specifically referenced by any rules authority I have noticed, doesn't supercede touching bases in the proper order, a rule. If touching home the last time by corrects the miss of home required before returning to third, then she still must return to third after finally touching home, as that is the required (in proper order) sequence; 1) retouch home on the way back, 2) retouch third as required, 3) THEN can be awarded home.

ASA 8-3.A, When a runner must return to a base when the ball is live or dead, the bases must be touched in reverse order. EFFECT: The runner is out, if properly appealed. And,

ASA 8-5.G (2) without full quote, requires giving runner an opportunity to "complete their baserunning responsibilities" if the runner is a base beyond prior to awarding bases on a overthrow or blocked ball. The baserunning responsibilities include 8-3.A, which is never stated as not required with the sole exception of a foul ball (in effect, a ball that never was in play, and there never was an advance, so why would you need to retrace in order).

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

But my question is why are there umpires working these games?

I used to NOT provide umpires at 8U, but my customers really want/need it. Combination of justifying registration fees and redirecting disputes from the teams and parents to a neutral arbiter.

The best part, for me as an assignor, is that our youth slowpitch has dried up; leagues just don't make anymore. I can still redirect those unable (physically) or unwilling to work fastpitch to coach pitch 8U, and keep them working (while not tieing up an experienced umpire). I also use it to get some young teens some experience at game management, without putting them in "real" fastpitch.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Not on my game; last time by, a theory not particularly or specifically referenced by any rules authority I have noticed, doesn't supercede touching bases in the proper order, a rule.

I was thinking that ASA had recognized "last time by" as a valid theory for their game in the "Plays and Clarifications" section of their website.

I looked through there and couldn't find it. Apparently, I am thinking of another sanctioning body. I definitely remember discussing this for some rule set or another before this season started.

But I'm still not buying the whole "this is just like a blocked ball" argument! Besides the fact that there is a very precise definition of and rule covering a blocked ball, a blocked ball (with a base award to the runners) is the result of the defensive team doing something they're not supposed to do. On this play, the defense was doing exactly what the rule compels them to do!

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BretMan

I was thinking that ASA had recognized "last time by" as a valid theory for their game in the "Plays and Clarifications" section of their website.

I looked through there and couldn't find it. Apparently, I am thinking of another sanctioning body. I definitely remember discussing this for some rule set or another before this season started.

But I'm still not buying the whole "this is just like a blocked ball" argument! Besides the fact that there is a very precise definition of and rule covering a blocked ball, a blocked ball (with a base award to the runners) is the result of the defensive team doing something they're not supposed to do. On this play, the defense was doing exactly what the rule compels them to do!

It's a local rule and not very well written, you have to find the closest analogy if you want familiar ground. But here's my real question about the rule. Comebacker to the pitcher. Pitcher holds the ball up. Does the BR (who isn't halfway to first) score (having been awarded home?)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

It's a local rule and not very well written, you have to find the closest analogy if you want familiar ground. But here's my real question about the rule. Comebacker to the pitcher. Pitcher holds the ball up. Does the BR (who isn't halfway to first) score (having been awarded home?)

I know this was partly tongue in cheek, but he did remember to word it to force runners forward in a case like you describe. There's actually not even a line between home and first on the field.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I used to NOT provide umpires at 8U, but my customers really want/need it. Combination of justifying registration fees and redirecting disputes from the teams and parents to a neutral arbiter.

I understand the registration side, but what I have seen is more like the "want/need" was more "I don't want to do that", for one of two reasons: they don't want to be screamed at by other parents, or they believe it is beneath their social status, like some people consider working the concession stand.

8U do not need umpires, they need coaches. IMO, it is a waste of money, but to some parents it is worth it.

The best part, for me as an assignor, is that our youth slowpitch has dried up; leagues just don't make anymore. I can still redirect those unable (physically) or unwilling to work fastpitch to coach pitch 8U, and keep them working (while not tieing up an experienced umpire). I also use it to get some young teens some experience at game management, without putting them in "real" fastpitch.

Second point is regional in that a lot of areas just do not have enough umpires to use up such a valuable resource. Obviously, that is not the case everywhere, but I would rather see the parents get a work out in the field of umpiring which may help develop a better opinion of what its like to be on the field. Granted, this reasoning is greedy and self-serving, but I don't care.

[txtrooper]

Sounds like you did the right thing Mike. We always have umpires in our 6U and 8U divisions at my local association. I agree that it would serve the parents right to have them call these games and it would free up an umpire to work other games, although I believe it would be a nightmare for the league.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by txtrooper

Sounds like you did the right thing Mike. We always have umpires in our 6U and 8U divisions at my local association. I agree that it would serve the parents right to have them call these games and it would free up an umpire to work other games, although I believe it would be a nightmare for the league.

Which means they would be more appreciative of the umpires they do get.

[tcannizzo]

Back in 89-94 I was on the board of a local rec association.
Although it wasn't my idea, each year all of the coaches were required to attend a coaches meeting held by then-UIC for Metro Atlanta, Charlie Myers.

Charlie conducted an umpire clinic, and administered the current umpire test to all the coaches. At the end of the session, each coach received a green card.

Later, a particular basketball official offered a program called "PETS" Parents Educated in The Sport. A 90-minute clinic explaining rules and rulings with a "hand-book" as a takeaway.

Both of these were invaluable in providing parents, players and coaches with a much better understanding of what is going on during a game; end result much smoother for all involved including the officials.

I know many, including myself, who offer rules clinics for teams and leagues. Perhaps more resources like this should be made available through a commercial venture.

Of course, there is the flip side. A whole mob of people who can say "I used to umpire"

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Of course, there is the flip side. A whole mob of people who can say "I used to umpire"

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I can think of a number of current uimpires who should be able to say this too.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I can think of a number of current uimpires who should be able to say this too.

Are you sure they ever really did?