8U rules conundrum

[MD Longhorn]

OK, this one has been posed to several of our most experienced umpires, and we're getting different answers from each... so for your opinions please:

8U ASA. The relevant rule for this area says, "Play stops when the pitcher obtains control of the ball within the circle and holds it up." The umpire is then to "direct runners forward if they are ahead of the halfway point, and send them back if they are not."

None out, R1 on third. VERY high pop up. R1 crosses the plate. F6 then catches the ball(!!!!!). F6 throws to pitcher, who misses the ball. F3 retrieves the ball and throws to F1, who catches the ball in the circle and holds it up. PU immediately calls time.

During this time, coaches are yelling for R1 to return, but she does not hear anyone until JUST a bit after PU calls time, at which she begins returning to third (skipping home, but that never comes up). Everyone's yelling at this point, PU holding his hands up, calling time progressively louder. Runner makes it back to third right as it dies down.

PU directs batter home, and she runs home (touching it again).

NO ONE appealed or even questioned what was happening, although there were a lot of confused faces. We won't go into the cluster that occurred 2 batters later when they got the 2nd out that everyone thought was the third out.

[CecilOne]

OK, the call is "PU directs batter home, and she runs home (touching it again)."
Presumably R1, not the batter.

The rule says "play stops" at the pitcher control demo point, at which time the Umpire artificially places the runner(s).
By that, R1 obviously past halfway when "play stops" and when time is called, looks like a correct call.

The conundrum is what "play stops" is intended to mean.

This paragraph is probably irrelevant to the call unless 3rd base dying down is needed.
"During this time, coaches are yelling for R1 to return, but she does not hear anyone until JUST a bit after PU calls time, at which she begins returning to third (skipping home, but that never comes up). Everyone's yelling at this point, PU holding his hands up, calling time progressively louder. Runner makes it back to third right as it dies down."


disclaimer: this is another local rule.

[MD Longhorn]

Yes, it is another local rule... but a very commonly used one (the "control in the circle" killing the action) in 8U.

The question is ... given this rule, did the PU do right by calling time at the instant the ball was controlled in the circle, and was the action of scoring the runner (yes, the runner) proper. (And would anyone have handled this differently?)

[okla21fan]

I would look at this conundrum this way. Much like a dead ball award or a 'home run', the baserunners are required to run the bases properly'. If not, the defense has the ability to make a proper dead ball appeal (of course, this would be very interesting to see pulled off in 8u )

I think the PU made his award (which was home) and was right for sticking to it. (what the runner (re touching home) did after calling time is not relevant as the ball is dead)

[BretMan]

Of course, there can't be any "right" answer here since this is a made up rule. It isn't going to conform with any standard rule or interpretation in the ASA rule book (unless this league has already anticipated such a play and written something to cover it, which I doubt).

I guess that I would:

- Call time once the pitcher had the ball (just because that's what their rule says you have to do).

- Ignore everything else that happened after that point...UNLESS it's an appeal for leaving early on the catch. Then I have an out.

If anybody complains, I'll invite them to file a protest with the league. Let them sort it out...and, hopefully, see the absurdity of their imaginary, made up rule.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Of course, there can't be any "right" answer here since this is a made up rule. It isn't going to conform with any standard rule or interpretation in the ASA rule book (unless this league has already anticipated such a play and written something to cover it, which I doubt).

I guess that I would:

- Call time once the pitcher had the ball (just because that's what their rule says you have to do).

- Ignore everything else that happened after that point...UNLESS it's an appeal for leaving early on the catch. Then I have an out.

If anybody complains, I'll invite them to file a protest with the league. Let them sort it out...and, hopefully, see the absurdity of their imaginary, made up rule.

Why ignore what happens while the ball is dead? The runner legally retouched after the ball became dead and then completed her baserunning assignment. If the defense wanted a timely appeal, they shouldn't have made the ball dead. (Then invite the people who complain to file a protest, hopefully, then they'll see the absurdity of their imaginary made up rule.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

PU immediately calls time.

Once the plate umpire calls time I would think play stops and there is no need for the runner to return to 3rd base.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by youngump

Why ignore what happens while the ball is dead? The runner legally retouched after the ball became dead and then completed her baserunning assignment.

What rule are you applying to say that she "legally retouched after the ball became dead"?

[AtlUmpSteve]

I'm with YoungUmp on this one. Here's the parallel; suppose the ball became dead because it was thrown out of play, instead of because the pitcher controlled it.

Wouldn't you allow the runner to return to a base left early during the dead ball, THEN award bases (home in this case, because she was more than half-way)? So, isn't this the same play (just a different creating the dead ball)?

Now, some will argue that her position wasn't a legal advancement; we hear that all the time as a supposed reason to change an award. But this rule, just like the awarded bases, relates to the player's position, without granting merit to the legality of that position.

So, I have a legal return to 3rd during the dead ball, negating that possible appeal; and a proper award back to home, under their local rule. If the defense wishes to appeal the miss of home on her return, I would honor that appeal, call fer out, and negate the run.

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I'm with YoungUmp on this one. Here's the parallel; suppose the ball became dead because it was thrown out of play, instead of because the pitcher controlled it.

Wouldn't you allow the runner to return to a base left early during the dead ball, THEN award bases (home in this case, because she was more than half-way)? So, isn't this the same play (just a different creating the dead ball)?

.

which is the whole problem with the local rule set. (why is the defense penalized?) while under 'normal' rule sets, the defense 'caused' the ball to be 'out of play'.... a mistake by the defense. (in your situation)

but in this case, the defense is simply following the rule set which the league set fourth and 'killed the ball' legally and intentionally.

(

[IRISHMAFIA]

But my question is why are there umpires working these games?

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

But my question is why are there umpires working these games?

Why indeed...

I work games in a fall league that has some pretty good competition for the older kids. They also have an 8U machine pitch division. I guess that some of the guys that were getting assigned to the 8U games complained about it, so the lady that runs the league decided to rotate the umpires through all the age divisions.

I really like working this league. They have nice fields, it's close to home, there's a laid back atmosphere and it's a chance to be out umpiring during a slow time of the year. But this week, I have to pay my penance...

My number came up and I get to work three 8U games on Sunday. I just hope that I can stay awake through the whole thing!

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I'm with YoungUmp on this one. Here's the parallel; suppose the ball became dead because it was thrown out of play, instead of because the pitcher controlled it.

That's what I was getting at in my reply to youngump. There is a rule that says a runner may go back and correct a baserunning mistake if the ball becomes dead due to an overthrow or blocked ball. This was neither of those.

Sure, I see the parallel. I also recall the thorough trouncing I got a few days ago when I suggested a parallel between a couple of other rules!

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

So, I have a legal return to 3rd during the dead ball, negating that possible appeal; and a proper award back to home, under their local rule. If the defense wishes to appeal the miss of home on her return, I would honor that appeal, call fer out, and negate the run.

When the runner touched home the second time (at the umpire's direction), her miss of the plate was corrected under the "last time by" theory. At that point, there were no appeals to be had.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

But my question is why are there umpires working these games?

It's 8U. About half the 8U around here has umpires, and half doesn't. After this week, they may well decide not to. However, the LP indicated that he might want no umpires for league play, and then umpires for tourney. To me, that's the worst of both worlds. Either pay for the umpire so that they learn during the year and know what to expect during tourney ... or DON'T pay for the umpire and DON'T have an umpire for the tourney. Consistency is key. Switching before the tournament is about the worst thing they could do in my book.

[MD Longhorn]

A couple of interesting points made here... thanks all - that's exactly why I posted it.

It seems to be the consensus, at least, that I (yes, I was PU) called time at the proper time. My supervisor (as well as at least 2 of our most experienced umpires) indicated that I should have let the play play out a bit more and not be so quick on calling time. 99.9% of the time if any of these 3 (much less all 3) are going to give me advice, I'm accepting the advice and thanking them for it... I respect all 3 that much. In THIS case, however, I feel their advice is dead wrong.

I take it a step further... if I was a coach (not a rat... a coach!) and the umpire did not kill it - I feel I'd have a valid protest (assuming I can get the umpire to admit he didn't kill it because he felt there was further play to be had, and not simply judgement that F1 didn't have control or something along those lines)... The rules simply say that what F1 did stops play. Period. In fact, the idea that I prevented the defense from executing a play or prevented offense from continuing to run kind of irks me ... as that is the PURPOSE of this rule - giving the defense a way to stop play and prevent offense from continuing to run.

The most interesting idea I've read above, and didn't consider on the field, was the thought that the "placement" of the runners in this situation might be similar to an "award" - and if it's an award (a la ball out of play, obs, etc), the runner should be allowed to complete their baserunning duties. Obviously, this being a made up Calvinball rule, there's no right answer. The rules don't use the word AWARD when giving the runner the base after where they stand at the moment of the dead ball... so I could see the justification of NOT allowing them to go back and retouch before continuing home... but the acts of Placement and Award are similar enough that I could see justifying allowing it as well. Obviously - this is a point that should be clarified by the Calvinballrulemakers.

(And then ... if we call this an award, and the runner returns to 3rd without retouching home... and then goes home --- do we have a LTB issue?!?!)