switching of bases

timharris · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 09:52pm

hello,
r1 on 1st base and r2 on 2nd base; when defensive coach calls time and goes too the mound; after the conference; r1 goes to 2nd base and r2 goes too first.what is the proper call for this? is this and appeal play? are do i call a dead ball and call both runners out?

thanks
tim

[Edited by timharris on Mar 18th, 2003 at 09:04 PM]

IRISHMAFIA · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 10:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by timharris
hello,
r1 on 1st base and r2 on 2nd base; when defensive coach calls time and goes too the mound; after the conference; r1 goes to 2nd base and r2 goes too first.what is the proper call for this? is this and appeal play? are do i call a dead ball and call both runners out?

thanks
tim

[Edited by timharris on Mar 18th, 2003 at 09:04 PM]

Speaking ASA

Well, with R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B. After a defensive conference, they switch bases. If the umpire notices, s/he might want to engage in a little preventive umpiring by asking the base coach if the runners are on the right base.

If the coach says yes (DMC-dumb move coach), or, as the umpire, you don't realize it until play has resumed or about to resume. At that point, you call time, rule both of them out and eject the manager/head coach for unsportsmanlike conduct.

blue · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 10:47pm

What association? A new change for ASA this year, both runners are out, and the manager evicted.

IRISHMAFIA · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 10:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blue
What association? A new change for ASA this year, both runners are out, and the manager evicted.

While there is a manager or two I probably wouldn't mind seeing evicted.....

.....I'm sure ejecting him/her will be enough punishment.

blue · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 10:55pm

I knew I should have said "tossed".

Panda Bear · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 20, 2003, 03:38pm

Speaking Fed.

I endorse Mr. Rowe's recommendation for preventive umpiring. But if that doesn't work, I'm not sure of the correct answer for outs. I went back thru the book, and would like expert insight.

USC ejections are judgement, not automatic. Higher levels, yes, the coach is gone. Players possibly too, if I even suspect they were not merely following directions.

But at lower levels, maybe not. In OR, all school is under Fed. Middle school teams, sometimes with 11-12 yros, some times with 0 LL experience, & rookie coaches. I've seen stranger things with no malintent. I wouldn't want to eject players in this case, and even sometimes at higher levels, if evidence is they were just following instructions, as that costs them the next game. I think that message should be saved for only those who would try this intentionally.

Even if USC, that calls for player replacement, but is not an out in this case. I believe the runner at 2nd. is out, justification would be passing the other runner. Don't know what rule to cite to call runner @ 1st. out. If the runner at 1st. should also be out, please identify what article would address that. Or, could defense appeal to 2nd., claiming runner on wrong base/off base? And wouldn't the appeal be required before calling runner now on 1st. out?

I would make it clear to the players and any coach I thought did this by mistake that a repeat would mean an ejection.

Thanks in advance. I've never seen this, which means it will probably happen in my next game.

blue · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 20, 2003, 05:31pm

I don't know about FED, but ASA calls for the head coach to be ejected.
Rule 8 Section 7 Y: "When following an offensive conference, base runners switch positions. EFFECT: Each runner on an improper base will be declared out. In addition, the head coach shall be ejected for unsportsmanlike behavior."
I think the only time I would do preventive umping and question the coach, would be young teams in rec ball.

blue · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 20, 2003, 05:35pm

After rereading the original I post,I noticed the situation arose after a defensive conference. Since the rule only specifies after an "offensive conference", I guess I would question the coach here to, and place the runners on the correct bases.

IRISHMAFIA · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 20, 2003, 06:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blue
After rereading the original I post,I noticed the situation arose after a defensive conference. Since the rule only specifies after an "offensive conference", I guess I would question the coach here to, and place the runners on the correct bases.

Don't read too much into the wording. If the runners leave their base and have a discussion with their base coach during a defensive conference, it is still a conference, just not a "charged" conference.

WestMichiganBlue · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 20, 2003, 10:14pm

Speaking FED.

Book does not specifically address this issue. So you are left with a judgement call. So if you judge it to be a mistake, then simply correct it by moving the runners.

But if you think that it was deliberate, then you have the USC weapon at your disposal. 3.3.o "commit any unsporting act to include . . . . behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play."

Now you have a choice of penalties for the players - Warning with ejection for subsequent violation, or ejection now. If you deem the coach in violation of 3.3.o then your choice is restriction to bench, or ejection.

And you are correct - there are NO outs associated with ejection.

Depending on the level of play, and the quality of the game - you have a lot of lattitude. Common sense takes precidence over literal interpretation of rules.

WMB

CecilOne · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 09:09am

ref: "And you are correct - there are NO outs associated with ejection." Are there outs if the ball becomes live and the runners advance?

Roger Greene · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 09:38am

This play is discussed in the Fed 2003 softball interps on the NHFS site.

I don't recall the exact play #, but ruling was if ball made live then trail runner out for passing and lead runner was out for abandonment. Coach may (not shall) be ejected.

Roger Greene

Striker991 · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 11:30am

In Little League softball, runners would be called out for being off their bases when the ball is put into play. As far as the coach being ejected is concerned, it would depend on the level and the coach. I have dealt with some coaches where this would be an honest mistake, really. A warning would be in order. Others I have dealt with would demand an ejection, a suspension, and a letter to the board that may result in the removal of the coach for the remainder of the season (cheating is NOT tolerated in LL).

SamNVa · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 12:38pm

The ruling Roger is referring to is SITUATION 10 on the FED site:

SITUATION 10: With R1 at second base, R2 at first base and a 1-1 count on B3, the offensive coach requests time to speak with the runners and batter. When the players return to their bases, R1 and R2 have switched bases. After the next pitch to B3, the defensive coach asks for time and informs the umpire that the runners are on the wrong bases. RULING: Both players are guilty of base-running infractions. The umpire shall rule both R1 and R2 out for switching bases. If, in the umpire's judgment, the act was deliberate, both players and the coach could be ejected for unsporting behavior. (3-3-1o#3; 8-3-6; 8-6-4; 10-2-3f)

The website is here.

SamC

CecilOne · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 05:12pm

Thank you both, I should have read before replying.