2 outs defense leaves field...call?

[rybo]

I solo umpired a 14U JO game. Situation runners on first and second, 1 out...runner on second tries to steal 3rd gets thrown out defensive runs off the field they think it is 3 outs. Runner on first waits with first base coach and then they start to run off the infield, runner gets two steps beyond 3rd base foul line...not out of play. Third base coach asks me "umpire two outs right?" I say, for both sides to hear, "YES and ball is in play" (ball laying on the ground in pitchers circle). Runner starts back to first base and makes it back safely. Defensive team trys to come back on the field and tag out the runner. Defensive team claims the runner is out for running out of the base line. I deny it and say your team left the field there was no play on her and she was not out. In my rules review I found ASA section 8 RUNNER IS NOT OUT. B "When a runner does not run in a direct line to a base, provided the fielder in the direct line does not have the ball in their possession". Any thoughts in confirmation to what I called or otherwise will be appreciated. Also by rule 8 B the runner could have run from the third base foul line direct to second base?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by rybo

I solo umpired a 14U JO game. Situation runners on first and second, 1 out...runner on second tries to steal 3rd gets thrown out defensive runs off the field they think it is 3 outs. Runner on first waits with first base coach and then they start to run off the infield, runner gets two steps beyond 3rd base foul line...not out of play. Third base coach asks me "umpire two outs right?" I say, for both sides to hear, "YES and ball is in play" (ball laying on the ground in pitchers circle). Runner starts back to first base and makes it back safely. Defensive team trys to come back on the field and tag out the runner. Defensive team claims the runner is out for running out of the base line. I deny it and say your team left the field there was no play on her and she was not out. In my rules review I found ASA section 8 RUNNER IS NOT OUT. B "When a runner does not run in a direct line to a base, provided the fielder in the direct line does not have the ball in their possession". Any thoughts in confirmation to what I called or otherwise will be appreciated. Also by rule 8 B the runner could have run from the third base foul line direct to second base?

As long as the defense thinking there were three outs is not your fault than I don't see how you could kill it or do anything else besides let it play out.

As for the runners behavior, she's certainly not out, what rule could make him out? The runner could go to second as long as she hasn't passed third. Passing third is a judgment call, and I'd have trouble saying a runner missed second and third in this description. But if she stepped right over third, then I think you'd have to.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by rybo

I solo umpired a 14U JO game. Situation runners on first and second, 1 out...runner on second tries to steal 3rd gets thrown out defensive runs off the field they think it is 3 outs. Runner on first waits with first base coach and then they start to run off the infield, runner gets two steps beyond 3rd base foul line...not out of play. Third base coach asks me "umpire two outs right?" I say, for both sides to hear, "YES and ball is in play" (ball laying on the ground in pitchers circle). Runner starts back to first base and makes it back safely. Defensive team trys to come back on the field and tag out the runner. Defensive team claims the runner is out for running out of the base line.

No such rule

I deny it and say your team left the field there was no play on her and she was not out. In my rules review I found ASA section 8 RUNNER IS NOT OUT. B "When a runner does not run in a direct line to a base, provided the fielder in the direct line does not have the ball in their possession". Any thoughts in confirmation to what I called or otherwise will be appreciated.

See above. A runner is only out for leaving the basepath by more than 3 feet when a tag is being attempted.

Also by rule 8 B the runner could have run from the third base foul line direct to second base?

She could have run out and high-fived the CF and then proceeded to 2B if she wanted.

[MD Longhorn]

I don't think I'd rule the runner had missed bases regardless of her path, even if directly over third ... possibly even if she TOUCHED third. It seems clear she was not running the bases.

I've seen this happen on occasion where the runner (or coach) realizes what's happening and the runner walks slowly to 2nd, 3rd so as to not draw attention. I don't believe I've ever seen her get all the way home before the defense noticed though.

[JefferMC]

My only comment here is that 2B may have been closer than 1B and just as valid a destination. DMR.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

My only comment here is that 2B may have been closer than 1B and just as valid a destination. DMR.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I don't think I'd rule the runner had missed bases regardless of her path, even if directly over third ... possibly even if she TOUCHED third. It seems clear she was not running the bases.

I've seen this happen on occasion where the runner (or coach) realizes what's happening and the runner walks slowly to 2nd, 3rd so as to not draw attention. I don't believe I've ever seen her get all the way home before the defense noticed though.

If a runner ran from 1st to 3rd touched 3rd and then ran straight back to first, you'd deny the appeal at 2nd?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not entirely sure what you mean by this.

He means that when the runner realized there were only 2 outs and needed to return to her base, she could have returned to 2B instead of 1B, and that was probably even closer to where she was. Stolen base + less chance to be tagged...

[Andy]

Originally Posted by rybo

I solo umpired a 14U JO game. Situation runners on first and second, 1 out...runner on second tries to steal 3rd gets thrown out defensive runs off the field they think it is 3 outs. Runner on first waits with first base coach and then they start to run off the infield, runner gets two steps beyond 3rd base foul line...not out of play. Third base coach asks me "umpire two outs right?" I say, for both sides to hear, "YES and ball is in play" (ball laying on the ground in pitchers circle). Runner starts back to first base and makes it back safely. Defensive team trys to come back on the field and tag out the runner. Defensive team claims the runner is out for running out of the base line. I deny it and say your team left the field there was no play on her and she was not out. In my rules review I found ASA section 8 RUNNER IS NOT OUT. B "When a runner does not run in a direct line to a base, provided the fielder in the direct line does not have the ball in their possession". Any thoughts in confirmation to what I called or otherwise will be appreciated. Also by rule 8 B the runner could have run from the third base foul line direct to second base?

You did fine. My only suggestion would be to not say the phrase I highlighted above. Answer the question that was asked.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

If a runner ran from 1st to 3rd touched 3rd and then ran straight back to first, you'd deny the appeal at 2nd?

Well, there was a reason for the "possibly"... My initial thought is that she wasn't really running the bases at all, and just happened to touch 3rd. However, I'm now waffling in my head over whether I would ignore that or not.

[rybo]

Andy...'YES' is all I needed to say. I noted that in my post game conference with myself. I do not need to announce to defense they screwed up. When they see the runner advancing they will get the picture.

Thank you.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by rybo

Andy...'YES' is all I needed to say. I noted that in my post game conference with myself. I do not need to announce to defense they screwed up. When they see the runner advancing they will get the picture.

Thank you.

For that matter, you could have said nothing. Honestly, would you answer a coach's question in the middle of any other play? (That said, I probably would have answered his question as well!)

[Tru_in_Blu]

Sometimes you gotta say something.

12U A pitch is behind the batter who crouched down to avoid it. Ball hits the bat behind her and bounces into fair territory. I remove my mask, point fair. Nobody's doing anything. Catcher finally retrieves the ball and throws it back to the pitcher.

I'm still standing there pointing and finally had to break protocol and said "That's a fair ball, ladies." O coach starts yelling for batter to run; D coach yells for pitcher to throw the ball to first, where F3 is daydreaming. Throw goes over, F3 wakes up and picks up the ball and tags first just before runner got there.

It was like everything was happening in slow motion, but it wasn't as good as the Baywatch opening.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by rybo

Andy...'YES' is all I needed to say. I noted that in my post game conference with myself. I do not need to announce to defense they screwed up. When they see the runner advancing they will get the picture.

Thank you.

Because I have a perverse sense of humor, I would have answered in a volume appropriate for the offensive coach to hear me so that when the runner started running the bases I could have a great laugh after the game from watching the defense go into Keystone Kops mode to get the player out.

MTD, Sr.

[MD Longhorn]

OK, been thinking about what I said earlier about ignoring the touch of third because the runner was not actually running the bases. And I agree it's problematical.

However, take this a half-step further.

Instead of third - for some reason R1 heads toward home, perhaps to pick up a discarded bat or something. She inadvertently touches home plate, then proceeds into the dugout, with the defensive team leaving the field as well.

If you consider touching 3rd in the OP as a baserunning touch, where runner needs to return to 2nd before 1st... then in this sitch, her touch of home was a SCORE. The defense leaving the field would mean they cannot appeal the 2 missed bases.