Need NSA Expert

[Bandit]

It's late and have to be back at the ball park early. But I ran into something yesterday I simply can't believe in the NSA rule book or in it's local interpretation. Local NSA is claiming that it is ok to skip a batter when it involves the courtesy runner. I believe local interpretation is combining or mixing 2 different rules.
With the way NSA allows for courtesy runners it is possible that you could end up with the courtesy runner on base when her position in the line-up coming up to bat.
I believe that the rule allows or states that the pitcher of catcher shall return to the base to run for themselves and the batter takes her proper turn at bat.
Local NSA is using a rule listed under the "batting" section to justify leaving the courtesy runner on base and simply "skip" her turn at bat and move on.
My belief or thought is that the skipping of a batter is involved when a batter has batter out of order and a legal pitch has been delivered to the next batter thus making her the proper batter and skipping the player that should have batted.
Has anyone run into this? Is this true? Local official claims "skipping" a batter does not "change" the batting order. Not quite sure how this is possible. Skipping is changing, personally.

[Dakota]

I don't know NSA's rules on CRs, but locally some of the leagues and tournaments have a bat-the-roster rule and a last-out as CR rule. This local rule is sometimes elaborated on to allow skipping the actual last out if she is a pitcher or catcher, and "last due up" can be used if you run out of "last out" players (such as in the first inning). I take it NSA has a CR rule that involves active players (like the last-out CR rule does). If the local leagues want to allow skipping under defined circumstances (such as you describe), I see no problem with it.

[marvin]

Related rules:

Rule 4 Sec. 6 Courtesy Runner: The player in the batting order where the last out was recorded or any player not currently in the game may replace the current (the player physically playing the position when the 3rd out was recorded) pitcher or catcher as a courtesy runner at any time. The pitcher or catcher will remain in the game and the courtesy runner will retain all substitution rights (if the courtesy runner has substitution rights). A player can be used only once per inning as a courtesy runner. Should the player that made the last recorded out be on base for any reason or is the pitcher or catcher, or batting or has already been a courtesy runner in that inning; the new courtesy runner would be determined by going back previous outs to the next allowable courtesy runner or to any player not currently in the game. If in the first inning a courtesy runner is used for either the pitcher or the catcher (who are listed in the line up when the line ups are turned in) and there are no outs recorded, the courtesy runner will be the player furthest removed from the pitcher or catcher needing the courtesy runner or any player not currently in the game.

Rule 7 Sec. 3 No baserunner shall be removed from the base she is occupying to bat in her proper place. She merely misses her turn at bat with no penalty. The batter following her in the order becomes the legal batter.

relevant case play:

4.6 FP, 4.10 SP R1, a courtesy runner, who was the last out, is on third base and due up to bat.
Ruling: Coach has following options: 1) Courtesy runner remains on base, and loses turn at bat with no penalty, and next batter is batter following that position. 2) Courtesy runner may be replaced on base by the player being run for, and then taking their turn at bat. (See also Rule 7.3)

Your local NSA is applying the rules properly.

When reading/searching the NSA rulebook remember that it includes sections for slow pitch, fastpitch and many other sub-sets (for church and industrial leagues for example). Make sure you are reading the proper section.

The rule book and case book can be DLed free from playnsa.com.

[Bandit]

THAT'S crazy. You are giving the coach an oppurtuniry to legally change the batting order.

[marvin]

Who the courtesy runner is in NSA is a lottery based on the last out.

When the pitcher or catcher reaches the coach can use or not use the CR, if that player's spot comes up and they are on base they just miss their turn.

It does not happen often, and mostly in a game where a team is scoring a lot. I have seen it hurt and help the team batting.

The CR is intended to speed up the game, so inserting and then removing a player as a CR goes against that. It also prevents a coach from using speedy Betty as a runner, but still having the option for her to bat if her turn comes up.

There are rules in every rule set that I disagree with, don't understand the reason for, or just think are nuts. They are still the rules. We don't get to pick and choose, you apply the rules as they are written or just don't work those games.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by marvin

There are rules in every rule set that I disagree with, don't understand the reason for, or just think are nuts. They are still the rules. We don't get to pick and choose, you apply the rules as they are written or just don't work those games.

Or just don't have your daughter play in a tournament that uses those rules

[robbie]

Originally Posted by marvin

Who the courtesy runner is in NSA is a lottery based on the last out.

True, but another legal option is "any player not currently in the game"

This is not considered a substitution if declared as a CR.

Additionally, the "Player not currently in the game" may be a player who has already been re-entered and subbed for meaning she has no more re-entry rights. As long as she is not currently in the game, she can CR.

[marvin]

Originally Posted by robbie

True, but another legal option is "any player not currently in the game"

This is not considered a substitution if declared as a CR.

Additionally, the "Player not currently in the game" may be a player who has already been re-entered and subbed for meaning she has no more re-entry rights. As long as she is not currently in the game, she can CR.

robbie,

But those options (which are legal) don't use a player currently in the batting order, so there is no potential to skip someone in the batting order.

[robbie]

Originally Posted by marvin

robbie,

But those options (which are legal) don't use a player currently in the batting order, so there is no potential to skip someone in the batting order.

Oh, of course. I was just clarifying the NSA rule since it was being commented on.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Or just don't have your daughter play in a tournament that uses those rules

Would love to have daughter's team only play ASA. But when state ASA decides to only run tournaments later in the year....basically after June 1st........it makes it sorta tough.

[Bandit]

In summary.
NSA Courtesy runner.
A) Can be last out.
B) If last out was the pitcher or catcher you can go back one more out
C) If you have eligible subs they can courtesy run and not affect their substitution privileges.

QUESTION….Can they substitute in the same ½ inning they courtesy run?

D) If you have a player sitting on the bench and she has “used up” her substitution privileges…..been in the game twice…..she can still be used as a courtesy runner.
E) If a player currently in the batting order is used as a courtesy runner and her turn at bat returns while she is on base the coach may:
1) Courtesy runner remains on base, and loses turn at bat with no penalty, and next batter is batter following that position.
2) Courtesy runner may be replaced on base by the player being run for, and then taking their turn at bat.
F) No player may be used as courtesy runner twice in the same inning. If the situation arises that a player HAS already run as a courtesy runner in the same inning you “go back” one more “out” to obtain a legal courtesy runner.

Have I missed anything?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Bandit

In summary.
NSA Courtesy runner.
A) Can be last out.
B) If last out was the pitcher or catcher you can go back one more out
C) If you have eligible subs they can courtesy run and not affect their substitution privileges.

QUESTION….Can they substitute in the same ½ inning they courtesy run?

D) If you have a player sitting on the bench and she has “used up” her substitution privileges…..been in the game twice…..she can still be used as a courtesy runner.
E) If a player currently in the batting order is used as a courtesy runner and her turn at bat returns while she is on base the coach may:
1) Courtesy runner remains on base, and loses turn at bat with no penalty, and next batter is batter following that position.
2) Courtesy runner may be replaced on base by the player being run for, and then taking their turn at bat.
F) No player may be used as courtesy runner twice in the same inning. If the situation arises that a player HAS already run as a courtesy runner in the same inning you “go back” one more “out” to obtain a legal courtesy runner.

Have I missed anything?

What a mess.

[marvin]

Originally Posted by Bandit

In summary.
NSA Courtesy runner.
A) Can be last out. YES
B) If last out was the pitcher or catcher you can go back one more out YES, but you can use the pitcher or catcher as a CR for the other position
C) If you have eligible subs they can courtesy run and not affect their substitution privileges. YES

QUESTION….Can they substitute in the same ½ inning they courtesy run? YES

D) If you have a player sitting on the bench and she has “used up” her substitution privileges…..been in the game twice…..she can still be used as a courtesy runner. YES
E) If a player currently in the batting order is used as a courtesy runner and her turn at bat returns while she is on base the coach may:
1) Courtesy runner remains on base, and loses turn at bat with no penalty, and next batter is batter following that position. YES
2) Courtesy runner may be replaced on base by the player being run for, and then taking their turn at bat. YES
F) No player may be used as courtesy runner twice in the same inning. If the situation arises that a player HAS already run as a courtesy runner in the same inning you “go back” one more “out” to obtain a legal courtesy runner. YES

Have I missed anything?

See answers in bold. The apply to youth fast pitch only.

You can simplify this all to:

The player who made the last out or a player not currently in the game can be a courtesy runner.

It is simpler to administer than it looks and if the coach or scorekeeper is keeping track it does speed the game up.