Bases - Illegally obtained vs legally obtained

[Linknblue]

ASA Rules set: What's the difference? Example: 1st base left too soon on fly ball (no tag up) and runner obtains 2nd base with no appeal by defense. Legally or illegally obtained? Does it matter if we have a blocked ball or out of play throw if and when play is appealed? My thoughts are, you wouldn't give the runner home if the runner realized his error and retreated to 1st during dead ball would you?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

ASA Rules set: What's the difference? Example: 1st base left too soon on fly ball (no tag up) and runner obtains 2nd base with no appeal by defense. Legally or illegally obtained? Does it matter if we have a blocked ball or out of play throw if and when play is appealed? My thoughts are, you wouldn't give the runner home if the runner realized his error and retreated to 1st during dead ball would you?

The base is legally attained unless and until it is appealed.

In your example, had the runner reached second base, the ball is still live, the defense makes a live ball appeal by throwing to first base, the throw goes out of play...I am awarding home. If the runner goes back and touches first, then second, third and home...no problem. If the runner fails to go back and touch first, s/he is still subject to appeal until the next pitch is thrown.

That would be fun to administer, wouldn't it....?

[Linknblue]

In my scenario, the runner simply went back to 1st during the dead ball period. He/she didn't advance. Now, where does the umpire place the runner?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

In my scenario, the runner simply went back to 1st during the dead ball period. He/she didn't advance. Now, where does the umpire place the runner?

Assuming the runner had reached second base at the time of the throw, I'm awarding home.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

In my scenario, the runner simply went back to 1st during the dead ball period. He/she didn't advance. Now, where does the umpire place the runner?

Where was the runner when the throw was released?
If on/past 2nd, then Andy's answer applies.

[Linknblue]

The runner was around 2nd heading for 3rd. In this case, 2nd was "legally" obtained?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

The runner was around 2nd heading for 3rd. In this case, 2nd was "legally" obtained?

Does any part of any rule on awarded bases use the phrase "legally obtained"? Why do think this concept applies in any case?

The rules are clear; awards are made from the positions of the runners. Depending on the rule, the awards may be based on the time of the pitch, the time of the throw, or the time the ball enters dead ball territory. But in every case, the awards are based on the positions of the runners. How they attained that position is a matter for appeal, and has nothing to do with awards.

Not sure how someone stuck that in your mind, but it has no affect on what you are asking.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

ASA Rules set: What's the difference? Example: 1st base left too soon on fly ball (no tag up) and runner obtains 2nd base with no appeal by defense. Legally or illegally obtained? Does it matter if we have a blocked ball or out of play throw if and when play is appealed? My thoughts are, you wouldn't give the runner home if the runner realized his error and retreated to 1st during dead ball would you?

Real simple. On a blocked or overthrown ball the runner is awarded two bases from where they were standing when the throw was released. No "what ifs" or "buts", that IS the award.

Whether the runner failed to touch or hold a base is irrelevant to any award, but is appealable by the defense as permitted by the rules.

Do not overthink this