look back

[MartyG]

Hello,
This is my first inquiry, so have patience with me, thanks. I would like to be as informed about the rules as I can be. I am reading the rule book and I am just not sure about some situations.
The look back rule is new to me. I need some clarification. When the pitcher is within the circle with the ball, all runners must precede to the next base or return to the previous base. There is no standing still. The runner gets only one stop.
If a runner commits to a base after the first stop there is no turning back. If she does turn back she is automatically out and the other runners still able to advance. (True or False)
If true, if we play on another runner does that wipe out the out?
If false, When a pitcher plays on a runner, all runners are then able to advance.
Please inform me where I might need some direction.
Thanks,
Marty.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by MartyG
Hello,
This is my first inquiry, so have patience with me, thanks. I would like to be as informed about the rules as I can be. I am reading the rule book and I am just not sure about some situations.
The look back rule is new to me. I need some clarification. When the pitcher is within the circle with the ball, all runners must precede to the next base or return to the previous base. There is no standing still. The runner gets only one stop.
If a runner commits to a base after the first stop there is no turning back. If she does turn back she is automatically out and the other runners still able to advance. (True or False)
If true, if we play on another runner does that wipe out the out?
If false, When a pitcher plays on a runner, all runners are then able to advance.
Please inform me where I might need some direction.
Thanks,
Marty.

Welcome.

The answer is false. The ball is dead when a runner is called out on a LB violation, so other runners just return to their bases. You can't make a play on them.

[kellerumps]

First of all, welcome to the board.

This is my first inquiry, so have patience with me, thanks. I would like to be as informed about the rules as I can be. I am reading the rule book and I am just not sure about some situations.

Looks like you found the right place. In any case, a very wise person told me a long time ago...."A person who asks a question is ignorant for 5 minutes....The person who doesn't is ignorant for a lifetime."

The look back rule is new to me. I need some clarification. When the pitcher is within the circle with the ball, all runners must precede to the next base or return to the previous base. There is no standing still. The runner gets only one stop.

If a runner commits to a base after the first stop there is no turning back. If she does turn back she is automatically out and the other runners still able to advance

I am going to assume, that the pitcher did not make any attempt to make a play on the runner or another runner. This does include making a fake throw and (agressive body movements-NCAA). If that is the case then all bets are off and Runners may advance at there own risk. Rule 8-8-T Exception ASA 12-18-D NCAA

If we don't have an attempt by the pitcher and you invoke the lookback rule, you will kill all play by indicating "Dead Ball" and then point to the runner in question and signal them "Out". With multiple runners, only one can be called out and the other(s) must return their previously occupied base. Be prepared to explain what you saw, as you will have a excited coach.

Keep asking questions.

[MartyG]

Thanks for the comments. You are making me feel good about getting a handle on things.
So, When no play is made by the pitcher and the baserunner on third steps off the base, or makes a second stop going back to third, she is out. The batter-runner touches first base, heads for second base, will have to stop and go back to first base?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by MartyG
Thanks for the comments. You are making me feel good about getting a handle on things.
So, When no play is made by the pitcher and the baserunner on third steps off the base, or makes a second stop going back to third, she is out. The batter-runner touches first base, heads for second base, will have to stop and go back to first base?

Well, here you threw in a little wrinkle - the BR.

Speaking ASA, the lookback rule is not in effect while the BR is progressing to 1st base. The other runners on base may legally remain off their bases, even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle, until the BR reaches 1st.

As soon as the BR reaches 1st (and F1 has the ball in the circle), if R1 has taken a lead off third (for example) she must decide immediately whether to attempt home or whether to retreat back to 3rd. If she lollygags around off base, she is out on a lookback violation, the ball is immediately dead. The BR will most likely be placed back on 1st, but may be placed on second if she was in the process of attempting second, and was judged to be more that half way at the time the ball was declared dead. Other runners who may also have been on base will be placed accordingly.

[greymule]

MartyG, POE #32 contains some useful information about the look-back rule, but as is common with the ASA book, you can't take everything it says literally. Part E says, "If a runner is moving toward a base, other than first base, when the pitcher receives the ball in the circle, that runner must continue toward that base or be called out." That statement directly contradicts Rule 8-8-T-1: "When a runner is legtitimately off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has the ball within an eight foot radius of the pitcher's plate, the runner may stop once, but then must immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base.

Obviously, if a runner is two steps beyond 3B and is moving toward home when the pitcher gets the ball in the circle, the runner can then stop and retreat to 3B, even if she advances several more steps toward home. Similarly, after a base on balls, and with the ball in the pitcher's possession, the batter-runner can continue past 1B as far as she wants, and then decide to take her one stop and return to 1B. If she actually reached 2B and then stopped and returned to 1B, she'd be out, though. (What if she rounded 2B and then took her stop and returned to 2B and then 1B in a continuous motion? By the book, that's legal.)

You'll find that if you ignore minor technical violations that don't violate the spirit of the rule, you'll seldom have to call it. I've done a zillion girls' tournaments and have called it only two or three times. The main play you have to watch for is runner on 3B, batter gets a base on balls. The catcher immediately returns the ball to the pitcher, who stands utterly still with the ball in her possession. After the batter-runner rounds 1B, the runner on 3B, anticipating that the pitcher will play on the runner, leaves 3B or moves back and forth in the baseline. In that case, you call her out.

Another play to watch for: runner who is trotting back toward 2B when the pitcher gets the ball in the circle then reverses and breaks for third. That's legal—she took her one stop.

You also have to expect that, since the look-back rule doesn't go into effect until the batter-runner reaches 1B, some girls who get bases on balls with advance very slowly toward 1B to give their runners a chance to deke and fake and try to draw a play from the pitcher.

[MartyG]

Thanks,
Sorry, I do not know about POE #32. Can you explain?

[greymule]

In the 2002 ASA rule book, Point of Emphasis #32 gives almost a page and a half of detail regarding the look-back rule. It provides several examples and clarifications. Here's one, in typical ASA mutilated grammar: "Placing the ball on the ground, holding between the legs or under the arm, is not considered having control of the ball."

It does point out, helpfully, that if either foot is completely outside the circle, the pitcher is not considered to be in the circle.

[mach3]

Originally posted by Dakota
Well, here you threw in a little wrinkle - the BR.

Speaking ASA, the lookback rule is not in effect while the BR is progressing to 1st base. The other runners on base may legally remain off their bases, even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle, until the BR reaches 1st.

That is a difference to ISF. But where do I find that in the book? I could not find that in my ASA 2001 Rule book, but since we don't do that much ASA here in Germany I am not that well informed on ASA (But I hope to find a chance to get an ASA License here).

Is that a new rule? Is that an interpretation? Can you quote where it is written or on what the interpretation is based.

Thanks.

Raoul

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mach3

That is a difference to ISF. But where do I find that in the book? I could not find that in my ASA 2001 Rule book, but since we don't do that much ASA here in Germany I am not that well informed on ASA (But I hope to find a chance to get an ASA License here).

Is that a new rule? Is that an interpretation? Can you quote where it is written or on what the interpretation is based.

Thanks.

Raoul

This was an ASA rule change in 2002. The rule number is the same, ASA Rule 8-8-T. The 2002 rule reads as follows (I've underlined the part that was new in 2002):

The "Look Back" rule will be in effect when the ball is live, the batter-runner has touched first base or has been declared out, and the pitcher has possession and control of the ball within the pitcher's circle. The pitcher is considered to be in the pitcher's circle when both feet are on or within the lines.

BTW, I think (not sure, though) that the phrase and control was also added to this rule in 2002. It's not listed as an "official change" in the rules changes at the front of the book, but somewhere in the back of my brain, I seem to remember that this was changed from 2001.

[mach3]

Thanks Tom,

I guess I have to get that book every year! So that I know what you are talking about.

Raoul