Drop 3rd strike mechanic

[AtlUmpSteve]

With that clarification, I agree with Bret. It is still a called third strike, so doing something different than a caught third strike is (to me) the same as changing a signal when a base is missed. Your emphatic third strike signal only makes it a called third strike; it is up to the teams to determine if the batter is out based on the rules, not based on an umpire directing their play.

We all need to realize that the NCAA coaches have significant influence on the NCAA rules and even NCAA umpire mechanics; and that many of them firmly believe and want that the umpires should have no judgment available on issues the coaches don't grasp, and announce and indicate all situations so the coaches know how to react. They have systematically changed items that require them to understand the game and make judgments.

Rules examples; 1) signal and announce "no tag" when runner misses home and catcher misses the tag, 2) batter not pulling the bat back from squaring to bunt becomes a strike without an attempt. You could add the pressure and influence on ASA and other organizations to match their pitching distance (43') because they didn't want to have to actually make a judgment if a pitcher could successfully adjust from 40' to 43', and to allow steel cleats so they weren't the first step in that use (meaning they might be held liable for failing to properly teach/coach a player on the safe use). Mechanics examples; 1) using the safe signal to indicate "no call" when no call always has meant "no call", 2) declaring "batter is out" when batter is not a batter-runner on a dropped third strike (rather than teaching their catchers which play to make in a given situation), 3) base umpires on the line to indicate "catch" or "no catch", and now 4) the plate umpire to up the ante by adding a superfluous (IMHO) "no catch" safe signal.

This may be what the NCAA coaches want, to reduce the umpires to signal machines for their benefit, and to eliminate as much judgment as possible. That doesn't mean all these are good for the game of softball, or necessarily good mechanics.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

...

We all need to realize that the NCAA coaches have significant influence on the NCAA rules and even NCAA umpire mechanics; and that many of them firmly believe and want that the umpires should have no judgment available on issues the coaches don't grasp, and announce and indicate all situations so the coaches know how to react. They have systematically changed items that require them to understand the game and make judgments.

Rules examples; 1) signal and announce "no tag" when runner misses home and catcher misses the tag, 2) batter not pulling the bat back from squaring to bunt becomes a strike without an attempt. You could add the pressure and influence on ASA and other organizations to match their pitching distance (43') because they didn't want to have to actually make a judgment if a pitcher could successfully adjust from 40' to 43', and to allow steel cleats so they weren't the first step in that use (meaning they might be held liable for failing to properly teach/coach a player on the safe use). Mechanics examples; 1) using the safe signal to indicate "no call" when no call always has meant "no call", 2) declaring "batter is out" when batter is not a batter-runner on a dropped third strike (rather than teaching their catchers which play to make in a given situation), 3) base umpires on the line to indicate "catch" or "no catch", and now 4) the plate umpire to up the ante by adding a superfluous (IMHO) "no catch" safe signal.

This may be what the NCAA coaches want, to reduce the umpires to signal machines for their benefit, and to eliminate as much judgment as possible. That doesn't mean all these are good for the game of softball, or necessarily good mechanics.

Steve, I think you applying the coaches' influence on rule into mechanics unjustly. I'm going to use a bit of speculation with what I'm about to say (as I'm not sure what is discussed at the coaches' meeting about mechanics). I don't think the coaches really know what we are signaling most of the time. Think about this: how many actually see us call a delayed deal ball on an obstruction or catcher's obstruction?

In reference to your numbers above:
(Rules)
1) This is an age old problem at all levels of softball. What is the difference between saying "no tag" to "delaying slightly"?
2) This is just a definition of a swing, that having the bat in the zone. I don't think this was to reduce our judgment; maybe this had to do with wanting catchers a better shot at a steal of second?
(mechanics)
1) My guess is the "no infraction" came from a someone in the umpire ranks rather than coaches. I'm thinking somewhere in the west
Personally, I like it and wish other organizations would adopt it.
2)This came as a result of the MLB play in the playoffs. It was implemented the following year. You only use this when necessary, because you are declaring a rule.
3) the D3K signal coaches rarely see. I personally like this mechanic, and it has become useful ways other than intended. For example, I had, what looked to me as PU, a foul tip (with two strikes). But before I signaled/ruled, I looked up to my BU who was pointed down (defensive coach wasn't happy). Another play where this could have been used was runner on second, two strikes and check swing on a ball in the dirt (less than two outs). I didn't have a swing, but my BU did. He gives me a point, and the situation works out better than it did (bottom 8, one run game, conference championship, regional berth on the line). I've also had an instance in an ASA national MFP where a batter scored on a D3K and this signal would have been very useful.
Again, I like this and wish other organizations would adopt it (even suggested it to my regional UIC).
4) Not sure where or how this change came about, but if from a coach, he or she must have been really burned by it. Most confusing because there was not some big D3K that everyone saw.

In conclusion, I think the coaches, as a group, are not aware of what we do or why we do it (yes, there are exceptions). For example, how many coaches are confused as to why we check swing to the U on the line? Don't you think coaches would change that (if they could change anything)?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

In conclusion, I think the coaches, as a group, are not aware of what we do or why we do it (yes, there are exceptions).

Many are not; absolutely true. The exceptions, however, tend to be the influential ones, that serve on Rules Committees, that are listened to by those that do serve. I have heard this "influence" from the mouth of the umpire out west of whom I believe you refer.

There may be some items in my list that were not influenced by the coaches. And some of these are, I agree, helpful at times. I don't want to debate the legitimacy of each item, but if they were all "no-brainers", then all other versions of softball rules and mechanics would adopt them!! That they may be helpful doesn't lessen the substantial influence the coaches have on the NCAA game. I seriously doubt that any coach or group of coaches has a similar affect to the rules or the umpire mechanics of any other association.

We will know more clearly when the next rules change cycle tells us if they eliminate illegal pitch rules instead of continuing to support enforcement.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

...We will know more clearly when the next rules change cycle tells us if they eliminate illegal pitch rules instead of continuing to support enforcement.

They only support enforcement of the illegal pitch rules on the other teams pitcher!

[JefferMC]

Originally Posted by Andy

They only support enforcement of the illegal pitch rules on the other teams pitcher!

But of course, his pitcher hasn't been called for an IP all season, so why start now?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by JefferMC

But of course, his pitcher hasn't been called for an IP all season, so why start now?

Flash back to last spring.

[IowaBlue]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

There may be some items in my list that were not influenced by the coaches. And some of these are, I agree, helpful at times. I don't want to debate the legitimacy of each item, but if they were all "no-brainers", then all other versions of softball rules and mechanics would adopt them!!

This is not necessarily the case. From a brief perusal of the board, it appears that you are an ASA adherent, which is fine. I myself swore by them for years. I have recently come to the realization, after working my last few nationals and having conversations with some of my acquaintances on the national staff, state UIC, going to clinics, etc, that for some reason they are very scared and reluctant to change.

Their mechanics options, compared to what the NCAA now offers, are almost becoming a joke, to the point that this will be the first time in my 15 years as an umpire that I won't be registering with them and I fail to see why people put up with their restrictions in terms of what umpires can do on the field.

As has been noted in another post, virtually every mechanics change you pointed out that the NCAA has adopted is actually a good and beneficial change. The exception is this new "safe" declaration on a dropped 3rd strike. That seems like some serious overkill and I will be interested to view the online rules clinic video and see it discussed.

As to the original poster in this thread, don't over-think the situation. The most important, and really only information, that needs to be conveyed, is that the pitch was in fact "Strike 3." How you go about reporting that information is of little consequence. Don't worry about "tipping your hand." The players involved are responsible for recognizing the situation and acting accordingly. It is highly unlikely that any minor vocal inflections are going to be noticed by players in the heat of competition, especially if they didn't already realize that the situation dictated that the runner should run and the catcher should make a throw.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by IowaBlue

I have recently come to the realization, after working my last few nationals and having conversations with some of my acquaintances on the national staff, state UIC, going to clinics, etc, that for some reason they are very scared and reluctant to change.

Can you provide some examples of what you perceive us to be "scared" to change? Maybe it can be addressed in a couple weeks.

Their mechanics options, compared to what the NCAA now offers, are almost becoming a joke,

Really? Tell us what makes you laugh.

to the point that this will be the first time in my 15 years as an umpire that I won't be registering with them and I fail to see why people put up with their restrictions in terms of what umpires can do on the field.

And after 45 years of umpiring, a few 20+ years with ASA, other than issues that would place an umpire in jeopardy, I have no idea to what you are talking about. But that's me.

BTW, welcome

[IowaBlue]

Mechanics issues include the following:

Plate stances. The old-school heel-toe, box, up-down squatting style that ASA teaches is a poor mechanic. The NCAA offers you many more comfortable options. I refuse to work ASA fastpitch for this very reason. It is too physically demanding, uncomfortable, and is just not the optimum way to call a game.

I know for awhile you weren't allowed to wear tan colored pads or silver frames on your mask, which would have knocked me out for consideration as well, although I think this was changed recently.

Base mechanics:

This continued insistence on "button-hooks" at all times and the refusal to let umpires us the "rim" mechanic. This is just plain dumb. It wastes energy and accomplishes NOTHING. I brought this up to Julie Johnson at a clinic and she would have none of it.

I brought this up to another staff member at a clinic (maybe even a pre-national one, I can't remember):

3-man crew, no runners on, batter hits a clean single. No umpire has chased. Why on earth does the 1B need to button-hook inside the diamond? You have help ahead at 2nd with the 3B inside the diamond. Your next responsibility as the 1B is to cover home if P goes to 3rd. There is absolutely no reason at all that 1B needs to "beat the batter-runner" inside here with a button hook. It wastes time and energy, and is just a goofy mechanic.

Two nationals ago I was reamed by the UIC for using the Gerry Davis, "hands-on-knees" base set stance. I had been using it all year, and it is very comfortable. There was no reason given other than "we don't do that here."

The fact that I couldn't use my normal routine in getting set for plays at 1B affected my comfort level, timing, and eventually my performance. Why? For no reason other than "we don't do that here."

My state UIC, who is a top level Division I umpire, was UIC at my last national. When discussing mechanics in the pre-tournament clinic, he chastised and ridiculed various NCAA mechanics when the were brought up, even though he himself USES THOSE VERY SAME MECHANICS when he is working a game. What is good enough for him is not, apparently, good enough for us, because our hats say ASA on them.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Whether you like the reasoning or not, we have all heard it many times and places, there needs to be one standard when training so many umpires. The NCAA, nor the franchised associations, doesn't have to train umpires. People don't get out of bed one morning and go to an association meeting, register and pick up a college schedule. Those dealing with college-level umpires are getting a broken in product which in many if not most cases was trained by an ASA affiliated association.

Billy P was correct in his assertion that it should not be an advanced school for umpires, but a school for advanced umpiring. The only problem is that unless every umpire has had similar training, the mechanics for that particular game must be the lowest common standard among the crew.

The NCAA has a closed shop and limited spectrum of a single game. ASA has to address at least three different games with participants from 6 to 80 and in some cases the same age range in umpiring.

Umpiring is just like everything else in life, you preform as directed for that particular game. If you have worked nationals, one of the things your UIC should impress upon you is that you do whatever the UIC tells you to do even if you know it isn't that way in the book. Say screw it and do it your own way, you may not return. BTW, pretty much the same with everything including the job which provides for your family.

Mechanics issues include the following:

Plate stances. The old-school heel-toe, box, up-down squatting style that ASA teaches is a poor mechanic. The NCAA offers you many more comfortable options. I refuse to work ASA fastpitch for this very reason. It is too physically demanding, uncomfortable, and is just not the optimum way to call a game.

I grew up working multiple stances, scissors, what is now referred to the GD stance which was not much different than what many baseball umpires were working in the '50s & '60s, just you only had one hand on your knee because the other was holding that balloon in place. I eventually moved to the slot after a couple years. I was in my mid-teens and already having issues with my back and neck working the scissors and the GD-equivilant stances.

I have found that the slot gives an umpire the most consistent view of the strike zone because you are set up in the same place in relation to the batter and zone every time. I have also found that umpires who set with their hands on the knees always get the same view of the ball, but not a strike zone since that changes with every batter.

If you find it too demanding, might I suggest you are either not executing correctly or are out of shape. This stance has allowed me to continue umpiring in comfort. BTW, I used the same stance in FP & SP and it works great for me.

I know for awhile you weren't allowed to wear tan colored pads or silver frames on your mask, which would have knocked me out for consideration as well, although I think this was changed recently.

Its called a "uniform" for a reason. I've seen umpires show up with masks they had left from their HS days because they were comfortable. The problem is they also came in the school colors. I have seen green, royal blue, purple, maroon and orange. I understand why there needs to be a standard.

Base mechanics:

This continued insistence on "button-hooks" at all times and the refusal to let umpires us the "rim" mechanic. This is just plain dumb. It wastes energy and accomplishes NOTHING. I brought this up to Julie Johnson at a clinic and she would have none of it.

I brought this up to another staff member at a clinic (maybe even a pre-national one, I can't remember):

3-man crew, no runners on, batter hits a clean single. No umpire has chased. Why on earth does the 1B need to button-hook inside the diamond? You have help ahead at 2nd with the 3B inside the diamond. Your next responsibility as the 1B is to cover home if P goes to 3rd. There is absolutely no reason at all that 1B needs to "beat the batter-runner" inside here with a button hook. It wastes time and energy, and is just a goofy mechanic.

How does it waste time? You need to be heading toward the plate anyway, why fight for space with the coach and runner. If you were walking the line, it shouldn't be an issue.

Two nationals ago I was reamed by the UIC for using the Gerry Davis, "hands-on-knees" base set stance. I had been using it all year, and it is very comfortable. There was no reason given other than "we don't do that here."

The fact that I couldn't use my normal routine in getting set for plays at 1B affected my comfort level, timing, and eventually my performance. Why? For no reason other than "we don't do that here.".

What other reason do they need? You are in their sand box, you play by their rules. If a player/coach tells you they have been doing something all year, do you reverse your IP call?

My state UIC, who is a top level Division I umpire, was UIC at my last national. When discussing mechanics in the pre-tournament clinic, he chastised and ridiculed various NCAA mechanics when the were brought up, even though he himself USES THOSE VERY SAME MECHANICS when he is working a game. What is good enough for him is not, apparently, good enough for us, because our hats say ASA on them.

He can differentiate from ASA and NCAA. They are different games, from the age and skill level of the participants to the liablities of all involved.

It is what it is. There are things the NCAA and NFHS do that I believe to be absurd, but on their field, that is what you do regardless of personal opinion. There are things ASA demands that I believe to be ludicrous, but when on their field, that is what you do. An umpire who shows up at a national who is not qualified or doesn't know and execuate the proper ASA
mechanics will very possibly earn a phone call from KR or the deputy supvr of that area to the state UIC.

Your state UIC knows the difference between associations and acts appropriately based upon the game in front of him.

It is a shame that you are not going to register ASA, but considering the passion of your opinions, it may be better for all parties.

Good luck.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

With that clarification, I agree with Bret. It is still a called third strike, so doing something different than a caught third strike is (to me) the same as changing a signal when a base is missed. Your emphatic third strike signal only makes it a called third strike; it is up to the teams to determine if the batter is out based on the rules, not based on an umpire directing their play.

So I don't tend to sell a dropped third strike and this isn't enough to convince me I should. I'm going to be tipping the result anyway, because my mask is off and I'm moving away from home plate. How is it more of a tip if I just call strike three than do that?
________
LIVE SEX WEBSHOWS

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

So I don't tend to sell a dropped third strike and this isn't enough to convince me I should. I'm going to be tipping the result anyway, because my mask is off and I'm moving away from home plate. How is it more of a tip if I just call strike three than do that?

Mask off and moving away from the plate is generally not seen by the two most affected players; batter and catcher. Signal difference not seen either, but the verbal difference on a called strike three would be an early warning system, I would think. Even to the coaches that don't know our signals.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Mask off and moving away from the plate is generally not seen by the two most affected players; batter and catcher.

Which is why I believe the mechanic inane. This is a knee-jerk reaction the MLB used when they had an incident a couple years ago, but even with that signal, the same play would have occurred. And, yes, it is a mechanic driven by the management side of the foul line. Even 10U catchers know to throw to 1B if there is a question and they see the B/BR heading to 1B when that avenue is available.

And, again, the BR is NOT safe, just not put out. IOW, the BR is in jeopardy and that is not safe.

Signal difference not seen either, but the verbal difference on a called strike three would be an early warning system, I would think. Even to the coaches that don't know our signals.

In FP I used the same signal for every strike, which is why I previously noted strike/out. Same signal, but for a third strike, it is the inflection of my voice that differentiates that call.