help finding older post

[shipwreck]

Can someone help me find an older post discussing what constitutes being out of the box when it pertains to making contact with the ball a second time? We had this discussion at our State softball tourney yesterday. Dave

[JEL]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

Can someone help me find an older post discussing what constitutes being out of the box when it pertains to making contact with the ball a second time? We had this discussion at our State softball tourney yesterday. Dave

Maybe this one?

Foul or Out?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by JEL

Maybe this one?

Foul or Out?

Or, if you do not have the patience for that, here is a summary of rulings I have obtained during the past year:

NFHS, USSSA - both feet out to be INT/out

ASA, NCAA, PONY, NSA - one foot out is INT/out

Source: various interpreters and rules committee members

[AtlUmpSteve]

CecilOne, not disputing what you have been told; just wondering who your NFHS source(s) was(were)?? You can PM me, if you prefer not to be public with it.

Thanks.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

CecilOne, not disputing what you have been told; just wondering who your NFHS source(s) was(were)?? You can PM me, if you prefer not to be public with it.

Thanks.

I posted this a while ago, and confirmed it with the original poster. I think I also checked with a local interpreter, not sure.

One of our other members once posted that a member of the NFHS softball rule committee said:

"For purpose of this rule only, being out of the box is defined as having both feet on the ground outside of the box."

This was never contradicted or reversed by that (now former) member of the Committee or by anyone in authority at NFHS, so it's my basis.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I posted this a while ago, and confirmed it with the original poster. I think I also checked with a local interpreter, not sure.

One of our other members once posted that a member of the NFHS softball rule committee said:

"For purpose of this rule only, being out of the box is defined as having both feet on the ground outside of the box."

This was never contradicted or reversed by that (now former) member of the Committee or by anyone in authority at NFHS, so it's my basis.

If that is truly the desire of NFHS, then they should make sure that it is in print either in the Rules Book or the Case Book.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

If that is truly the desire of NFHS, then they should make sure that it is in print either in the Rules Book or the Case Book.

And, going back to that original post by WMB, he noted he asked for an official ruling from MS, but there was never a follow-up.

With all due respect to WMB and his source, I can see no basis to come to that rule decision for NFHS, for the same reasons (almost) everyone else concludes that one foot on the ground and completely out is out of "everything".

[MD Longhorn]

Maybe it's just me, but it makes a helluva a lot more sense to not care where feet are (we have a runner in motion --- how often does a runner in motion actually have BOTH feet on the ground anyway?!?!) - but rather where the ball is when it hits the runner?

[BretMan]

It does seem like it would be simple enough to put a definition for being "out of the box" in the rule book for this play. The number of times this question and debate pops up serves to illustrate that the current rules leave this as an ill-defined grey area.

This year a definition was finally added to OBR. Apparently, somebody finally recognized the need to spell it out. It only took them about a hundred years to put something official in their rules...so maybe one of the softball associations will follow suit one of these days!

The following play is currently being discussed on another softball forum...

Batter squares to bunt. Pitch is bunted straight down into the plate and bounces straight up. The batter-runner begins her first step from the box. As her foot is in the air, not yet having touched down outside the box, the ball hits her foot directly over home plate. Umpire calls batter-runner out.

I guess no matter if you think having one foot or both feet on the ground outside the box is being "out of the box", this B/R hadn't met either of those standards.

By the standard offered by mbcrowder, I guess he would like an out here since the ball hit the batter outside the box and over fair territory.

My thinking is that since this is a legal position to bat the the ball, then it should not be an illegal position to be hit by the batted ball. I'd call it foul- and sell the crap out of it!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

It does seem like it would be simple enough to put a definition for being "out of the box" in the rule book for this play. The number of times this question and debate pops up serves to illustrate that the current rules leave this as an ill-defined grey area.

This year a definition was finally added to OBR. Apparently, somebody finally recognized the need to spell it out. It only took them about a hundred years to put something official in their rules...so maybe one of the softball associations will follow suit one of these days!

The following play is currently being discussed on another softball forum...

Batter squares to bunt. Pitch is bunted straight down into the plate and bounces straight up. The batter-runner begins her first step from the box. As her foot is in the air, not yet having touched down outside the box, the ball hits her foot directly over home plate. Umpire calls batter-runner out.

I guess no matter if you think having one foot or both feet on the ground outside the box is being "out of the box", this B/R hadn't met either of those standards.

By the standard offered by mbcrowder, I guess he would like an out here since the ball hit the batter outside the box and over fair territory.

My thinking is that since this is a legal position to bat the the ball, then it should not be an illegal position to be hit by the batted ball. I'd call it foul- and sell the crap out of it!

Well ... I don't "want" anything, and I see your point here, although I do have to wonder what convoluted running strategy the batter was using if her foot ended up over home plate after bunting, in the time it takes for a bunted ball to go straight down and straight up to, well, foot height. Doesn't seem realistic. seems that most bunts that hit the batter hit them in the chest (and usually within the confines of the batters box - after bunting, it would require great feats of superhuman strength to get OUT of the box before the ball could bounce straight down and then straight up.

But the two feet out standard will NEVER be met - people running very very rarely have two feet on the ground at all, and this would imply a BR who realizes she's about to be hit by the batted ball merely has to leap to avoid being called out.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Well ... I don't "want" anything, and I see your point here, although I do have to wonder what convoluted running strategy the batter was using if her foot ended up over home plate after bunting, in the time it takes for a bunted ball to go straight down and straight up to, well, foot height. Doesn't seem realistic. seems that most bunts that hit the batter hit them in the chest (and usually within the confines of the batters box - after bunting, it would require great feats of superhuman strength to get OUT of the box before the ball could bounce straight down and then straight up.

But the two feet out standard will NEVER be met - people running very very rarely have two feet on the ground at all, and this would imply a BR who realizes she's about to be hit by the batted ball merely has to leap to avoid being called out.

I think you are missing the concept of both feet.
We are not saying both feet touching at the same time as the contact or even concurrently, just that each foot has to have touched the ground outside the batting box at some point after the ball is batted.
IOW, a second step with the "trail" foot, that touches the ground outside the box.
IOW 2, if the last place the "trail" foot touched before contact with the batted ball is in the box, then batter is still in the box.

[CecilOne]

As long as we are discussing rule changes and editing, how about documenting this for ASA?

[shipwreck]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

As long as we are discussing rule changes and editing, how about documenting this for ASA?

I second that. Wouldn't hurt ASA and NCAA to put it in writing what constitutes being "out of the box" when it comes to making contact with the ball after it has been hit. Dave

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

I second that. Wouldn't hurt ASA and NCAA to put it in writing what constitutes being "out of the box" when it comes to making contact with the ball after it has been hit. Dave

Out of the box is not in the box.

[shipwreck]

Most of us agree with that. Problem is, wording is vague in all rulesets. I don't think we have a concrete rule reference that states what you say though. Dave