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[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

It does seem like it would be simple enough to put a definition for being "out of the box" in the rule book for this play. The number of times this question and debate pops up serves to illustrate that the current rules leave this as an ill-defined grey area.

This year a definition was finally added to OBR. Apparently, somebody finally recognized the need to spell it out. It only took them about a hundred years to put something official in their rules...so maybe one of the softball associations will follow suit one of these days!

The following play is currently being discussed on another softball forum...

Batter squares to bunt. Pitch is bunted straight down into the plate and bounces straight up. The batter-runner begins her first step from the box. As her foot is in the air, not yet having touched down outside the box, the ball hits her foot directly over home plate. Umpire calls batter-runner out.

I guess no matter if you think having one foot or both feet on the ground outside the box is being "out of the box", this B/R hadn't met either of those standards.

By the standard offered by mbcrowder, I guess he would like an out here since the ball hit the batter outside the box and over fair territory.

My thinking is that since this is a legal position to bat the the ball, then it should not be an illegal position to be hit by the batted ball. I'd call it foul- and sell the crap out of it!

Well ... I don't "want" anything, and I see your point here, although I do have to wonder what convoluted running strategy the batter was using if her foot ended up over home plate after bunting, in the time it takes for a bunted ball to go straight down and straight up to, well, foot height. Doesn't seem realistic. seems that most bunts that hit the batter hit them in the chest (and usually within the confines of the batters box - after bunting, it would require great feats of superhuman strength to get OUT of the box before the ball could bounce straight down and then straight up.

But the two feet out standard will NEVER be met - people running very very rarely have two feet on the ground at all, and this would imply a BR who realizes she's about to be hit by the batted ball merely has to leap to avoid being called out.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Well ... I don't "want" anything, and I see your point here, although I do have to wonder what convoluted running strategy the batter was using if her foot ended up over home plate after bunting, in the time it takes for a bunted ball to go straight down and straight up to, well, foot height. Doesn't seem realistic. seems that most bunts that hit the batter hit them in the chest (and usually within the confines of the batters box - after bunting, it would require great feats of superhuman strength to get OUT of the box before the ball could bounce straight down and then straight up.

But the two feet out standard will NEVER be met - people running very very rarely have two feet on the ground at all, and this would imply a BR who realizes she's about to be hit by the batted ball merely has to leap to avoid being called out.

I think you are missing the concept of both feet.
We are not saying both feet touching at the same time as the contact or even concurrently, just that each foot has to have touched the ground outside the batting box at some point after the ball is batted.
IOW, a second step with the "trail" foot, that touches the ground outside the box.
IOW 2, if the last place the "trail" foot touched before contact with the batted ball is in the box, then batter is still in the box.

[CecilOne]

As long as we are discussing rule changes and editing, how about documenting this for ASA?

[shipwreck]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

As long as we are discussing rule changes and editing, how about documenting this for ASA?

I second that. Wouldn't hurt ASA and NCAA to put it in writing what constitutes being "out of the box" when it comes to making contact with the ball after it has been hit. Dave

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shipwreck

I second that. Wouldn't hurt ASA and NCAA to put it in writing what constitutes being "out of the box" when it comes to making contact with the ball after it has been hit. Dave

Out of the box is not in the box.

[shipwreck]

Most of us agree with that. Problem is, wording is vague in all rulesets. I don't think we have a concrete rule reference that states what you say though. Dave