Watching 10U - BR to 3rd!

[SRW]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

If she had run to 2nd after third, I could more easily see this as running the bases backward.

However, going from the batter's box to third is not going backward ... it's just going to third. She wasn't "on" home... she was just near it.

So under your logic, B hits the ball, steps on home plate, and stays there. Ball goes to F1 in the circle, never having gone to F3 at 1B. PU calls time.

Award a run because she ran to home and stopped? What if she had just ran from home to 2B straight past F1 and stopped there?

It is not only a fundamental game concept to run from the BBox to 1B, 2B, 3B, and HP in that order, but it is rule (ASA 5.5.A.1). Break the rule by running backwards, you're out. Appealed for missing a base, you're out.

In your O, leaving the runner on 3B not only creates a major disadvantage to the defense, but you're now in the realm of determining what you think is confusion on the Offensive's part... and they're only 10, so poor little girls? They don't know any better?

No. Wrong.

Call the out. You don't have any ability or rule to allow you to determine that the offensive team was confused in this situation... only that the offensive confused the fielders.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

It is not only a fundamental game concept to run from the BBox to 1B, 2B, 3B, and HP in that order, but it is rule (ASA 5.5.A.1). Break the rule by running backwards, you're out. Appealed for missing a base, you're out.

My, my, my......where does it say the runner must touch those bases in that order?

Rule 8.3 refers to order and reverse order, but nowhere in book does it state that order.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

My, my, my......where does it say the runner must touch those bases in that order?

Rule 8.3 refers to order and reverse order, but nowhere in book does it state that order.

Took you a while this time, Mike. I was looking for this post a few days ago!

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by argodad

Took you a while this time, Mike. I was looking for this post a few days ago!

You and me both. I was going to stay quiet and just not encourage him.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

My, my, my......where does it say the runner must touch those bases in that order?

Rule 8.3 refers to order and reverse order, but nowhere in book does it state that order.

Don't know about you east coast people, but out here, we count from 1 and go to 2, then up to 3, and so on.

Do you really intend to win this argument on the basis that a runner from Delaware might have actually been taught to count backwards beginning from 3?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

Don't know about you east coast people, but out here, we count from 1 and go to 2, then up to 3, and so on.

And yet in football on both coasts the player runs from the 10 to the 9, to the 8, to the 7, to the 6, to the 5, to the 4, to the 3, to the 2, to the 1 before they can score.

Do you really intend to win this argument on the basis that a runner from Delaware might have actually been taught to count backwards beginning from 3?

I never stated or insinuated anyone count backwards, just that the ASA rule book simple states the runner must touch each of the 4 bases to score a run, not that they must be run in that particular order like NFHS rules do (8.3.1)

[txtrooper]

If I see this violation, I am invoking 8.3.D. Legal order for the bases means legal order; it should not have to be spelled out for us or anyone else to understand. It is an elementary theory of order 1, 2 3…….etc.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by txtrooper

If I see this violation, I am invoking 8.3.D. Legal order for the bases means legal order; it should not have to be spelled out for us or anyone else to understand. It is an elementary theory of order 1, 2 3…….etc.

Then why does NFHS and NCAA believe it to be necessary?

What would you do in a JO game if a pitcher, catcher or infielder entered the field of play on defense without a glove?

[txtrooper]

I haven't started calling High School or College games at this point and have not looked over the rule sets for them. It appears that the call is supported by ASA rule and the right thing to do. I understand that the situation above was a little different as the coach was granted time and did not allow the play to finish before calling time, although Rule 10 allows for the umpire to make it right and I believe they should do so. I know we are getting off the original post here, but I am going to take a stab at your question. If I had a defensive player enter the field w/o a glove, I would be concerned for her safety and advise the coach of my concerns. If the player refused to use a glove, I would not allow the player to remain on the field.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by txtrooper

If I see this violation, I am invoking 8.3.D. Legal order for the bases means legal order; it should not have to be spelled out for us or anyone else to understand. It is an elementary theory of order 1, 2 3…….etc.

I get that, but if 1-2-3-H is the "normal order", then H-3-2-1 would be "backward" She didn't run 1-2-3-H, obviously... but she also didn't run H-3-2-1 (or any part of it). Just because she's started at the batters box doesn't mean she's starting at home. Batters box to 3rd is NOT the same as running to third after having achieved home plate.

And also remember that running backward is NOT illegal (happens often on caught flies, run downs, etc). Running backward with the intent of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game is illegal. And I don't think that applies in the OP at all.

[txtrooper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I get that, but if 1-2-3-H is the "normal order", then H-3-2-1 would be "backward" She didn't run 1-2-3-H, obviously... but she also didn't run H-3-2-1 (or any part of it). Just because she's started at the batters box doesn't mean she's starting at home. Batters box to 3rd is NOT the same as running to third after having achieved home plate.

And also remember that running backward is NOT illegal (happens often on caught flies, run downs, etc). Running backward with the intent of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game is illegal. And I don't think that applies in the OP at all.

"Any part of it", third is still a part of the bases. I realize that batter runner starts in the batters box, although running to third is reverse order. Suppose nothing is done and the runner advances to home, the run can not score because the player never touched 1st or 2nd (ASA 5.5). I believe that this situation would provoke an appeal, but if it did not , what would you rule on the play?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SRW

So under your logic, B hits the ball, steps on home plate, and stays there. Ball goes to F1 in the circle, never having gone to F3 at 1B. PU calls time.

The big problem here is calling time. Why did PU call time?

Award a run because she ran to home and stopped? What if she had just ran from home to 2B straight past F1 and stopped there?

Well, no - shouldn't have stopped play in the first place... but if you did - for whatever reason, your options are detailed above. I would opt for putting the batter-runner on first... but "scoring the run" at least temporarily could be defenseable.

It is not only a fundamental game concept to run from the BBox to 1B, 2B, 3B, and HP in that order, but it is rule (ASA 5.5.A.1).

Really? Care to quote that rule?

Break the rule by running backwards, you're out.

Are you really going to try to say a BR who simply goes nowhere has created a travesty of the game or attempted to confuse opponents??!?!!

Appealed for missing a base, you're out.

Hell yes - of course... and in the OP, this is what the defense should have done.

In your O, leaving the runner on 3B not only creates a major disadvantage to the defense,

How???? The defense has no disadvantage, and has an easy appealable out if they'd just bother to take it.

Call the out. You don't have any ability or rule to allow you to determine that the offensive team was confused in this situation... only that the offensive confused the fielders.

Out for what?????? The rule you're using says that the offense ran backward with the intent of confusing the defense... If that was not the purpose of the run, then you can't call her out just because the effect was to confuse them. Besides - running directly from the batters box to third base is NOT running the bases backward. It's simply skipping bases.