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Old Wed Oct 13, 2010, 01:28pm
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Watching 10U - BR to 3rd!

Was watching a 10U game waiting for my partner for the next game to finish up. He was alone on this field and is in his first year. Batter hits the ball. The way everyone screamed this MAY have been the first time ever. With 79 people telling her what to do .... she ran to third and stayed there. Worse ... the defense threw the ball to pitcher and then did nothing.

Parents from both sides are alternatively laughing and yelling. Coach either doesn't say anything to her, or she ignored him, not sure which. Defensive coach requests time, and unfortunately, the umpire granted it. More unfortunately, the offensive coach came out too and joined the "discussion". I was close enough to hear much of it. Most of the DC's argument was of the form "She can't do that." and "That's just wrong" --- never any concrete anything.

Out of curiosity --- what would YOU do? I know what I would have done, but will wait to hear your answers.

This got a lot of discussion in the locker room, everything from missed base to LBR (including an interesting disagreement regarding what should be done if, while F1 had the ball in the circle, BR suddenly ran toward first ... or home... or 2nd!), to appeals, to running the bases in reverse, to "just fix it". Forget that it's 10U (where the inclination is probably more likely to ignore rules and just fix it) and rule as if this was somehow the 16U state championship.

ASA if it matters - interested to hear of a FED or even NCAA rule makes this different.
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Old Wed Oct 13, 2010, 04:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
Was watching a 10U game waiting for my partner for the next game to finish up. He was alone on this field and is in his first year. Batter hits the ball. The way everyone screamed this MAY have been the first time ever. With 79 people telling her what to do .... she ran to third and stayed there. Worse ... the defense threw the ball to pitcher and then did nothing.

Parents from both sides are alternatively laughing and yelling. Coach either doesn't say anything to her, or she ignored him, not sure which. Defensive coach requests time, and unfortunately, the umpire granted it. More unfortunately, the offensive coach came out too and joined the "discussion". I was close enough to hear much of it. Most of the DC's argument was of the form "She can't do that." and "That's just wrong" --- never any concrete anything.

Out of curiosity --- what would YOU do? I know what I would have done, but will wait to hear your answers.

This got a lot of discussion in the locker room, everything from missed base to LBR (including an interesting disagreement regarding what should be done if, while F1 had the ball in the circle, BR suddenly ran toward first ... or home... or 2nd!), to appeals, to running the bases in reverse, to "just fix it". Forget that it's 10U (where the inclination is probably more likely to ignore rules and just fix it) and rule as if this was somehow the 16U state championship.

ASA if it matters - interested to hear of a FED or even NCAA rule makes this different.
Here's my shot at it. If it happened in a 16U state championship, I'd have trouble believing it wasn't done on purpose and have running the bases in reverse. If it didn't happen on purpose she missed first and second on her way to 3rd. She subject to appeal and it's too late to go back. If she steps off the base while the pitcher has it she's out.
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Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:36pm.
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Old Wed Oct 13, 2010, 05:00pm
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Here is my swing....
To address the Time Out request, I think the correct thing to do by rule is deny the time out as the play is still going on. The batter is not out or safe yet, she is just on her way to 1st base (although she is taking the long way there). So, you should tell the coach, time out is not being granted and continue to watch the play develope. This is easy to say after the fact. Honestly if it happened to me, I would probably have allowed the time out before I realized I should not have.

As far as what to do next, it just depends what happens. The defense could throw the ball to 1st and step on 1st and then an out should be called. A fielder with the ball could go tag the runner while she stands on 3rd and the runner should be called out.

What would really be weird is if the defense did nothing and the next pitch was thrown. At that point since the batter-runner never reached 1st I believe she is out for leaving 1st base early. I guess I could also see an argument for LBR once the pitcher had the ball in the circle since the batter-runner is not standing on 1st.

This is why it is harder to umpire 10U and 8U games than it is to umpire 16U games. The younger age groups is when all the weird things happen.
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Old Wed Oct 13, 2010, 05:16pm
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To the previous answers I'll ask...

When does the LBR begin taking affect after a batter becomes a batter-runner?
What does the leaving early rule say?

At the point of this "what would you do", there had been no appeal, or even a mention by the DC about missing bases or anything of the sort (and all his jawing was during TO anyway).

Yeah, he shouldn't have granted time - we still have a live ball here. I wouldn't have granted time for several seconds after he did... but assume he eventually HAD to, as nothing was happening.
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Old Wed Oct 13, 2010, 05:43pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
To the previous answers I'll ask...

When does the LBR begin taking affect after a batter becomes a batter-runner?
What does the leaving early rule say?

At the point of this "what would you do", there had been no appeal, or even a mention by the DC about missing bases or anything of the sort (and all his jawing was during TO anyway).

Yeah, he shouldn't have granted time - we still have a live ball here. I wouldn't have granted time for several seconds after he did... but assume he eventually HAD to, as nothing was happening.
Why not grant time? You didn't have any action and you didn't have any runners off base. Is this situation somehow much different if she runs 30 feet toward first and then takes off for third?
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Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:36pm.
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Old Thu Oct 14, 2010, 08:59am
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ASA 8.3.D. Dead ball, runner's out.
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Old Thu Oct 14, 2010, 09:37am
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Originally Posted by SRW View Post
ASA 8.3.D. Dead ball, runner's out.
No book here at work ... which rule is that?
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Old Thu Oct 14, 2010, 11:16am
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
No book here at work ... which rule is that?
Running the bases in reverse order.
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Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:37pm.
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Old Thu Oct 14, 2010, 01:30pm
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I don't believe this can be considered creating a travesty of the game by running the bases in backward order, if you've not achieved home plate legally, then traversing toward third is not running the basepaths backward.

I think the most defensible positions are A) BR made it to third missing (grossly) 1st and 2nd base, and B) BR is simply "no where" - has not achieved 1st base and that's all.

Once time was called, if you go with A, then BR would be out if appealled, and additionally would be out once the pitcher held the ball, if she tried to go ahead and head toward first base (LBR).

If you go with B, the LBR can NEVER come into play - BR has not reached first base ... so LBR is not in effect. Umpire called time, with BR not on a base and no play being made - the only acceptable remedy there is simply placing the runner on 1st.

PU in this situation, on the spot and without the benefit of 4000 internet umpires to help... ... simply told the DC that the runner is on third, and we need to play on. Defense never did appeal the play. Once the next pitch happened, amid all the grumbling directed at me solely because I wore a similar shirt to the umpire in question (!), I told them all they had to do was appeal that she missed 1st or 2nd.
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Old Thu Oct 14, 2010, 01:46pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
I don't believe this can be considered creating a travesty of the game by running the bases in backward order, if you've not achieved home plate legally, then traversing toward third is not running the basepaths backward.
I agree with your conclusion, but not how you got there. This is definitely running the bases backward, she went to the last numbered base first and if it had been a double, she would have run to second. But the rule says that she has to be running them backward to confuse the defense or make a travesty of the game and I think it's pretty clear she did it because she was confused.
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Last edited by youngump; Mon Sep 19, 2011 at 07:37pm.
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Old Thu Oct 14, 2010, 02:05pm
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Originally Posted by youngump View Post
I agree with your conclusion, but not how you got there. This is definitely running the bases backward, she went to the last numbered base first and if it had been a double, she would have run to second. But the rule says that she has to be running them backward to confuse the defense or make a travesty of the game and I think it's pretty clear she did it because she was confused.
If she had run to 2nd after third, I could more easily see this as running the bases backward.

However, going from the batter's box to third is not going backward ... it's just going to third. She wasn't "on" home... she was just near it.
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Old Thu Oct 14, 2010, 11:57pm
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Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
If she had run to 2nd after third, I could more easily see this as running the bases backward.

However, going from the batter's box to third is not going backward ... it's just going to third. She wasn't "on" home... she was just near it.
So under your logic, B hits the ball, steps on home plate, and stays there. Ball goes to F1 in the circle, never having gone to F3 at 1B. PU calls time.

Award a run because she ran to home and stopped? What if she had just ran from home to 2B straight past F1 and stopped there?

It is not only a fundamental game concept to run from the BBox to 1B, 2B, 3B, and HP in that order, but it is rule (ASA 5.5.A.1). Break the rule by running backwards, you're out. Appealed for missing a base, you're out.

In your O, leaving the runner on 3B not only creates a major disadvantage to the defense, but you're now in the realm of determining what you think is confusion on the Offensive's part... and they're only 10, so poor little girls? They don't know any better?

No. Wrong.

Call the out. You don't have any ability or rule to allow you to determine that the offensive team was confused in this situation... only that the offensive confused the fielders.
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Old Fri Oct 15, 2010, 09:59am
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Originally Posted by SRW View Post
It is not only a fundamental game concept to run from the BBox to 1B, 2B, 3B, and HP in that order, but it is rule (ASA 5.5.A.1). Break the rule by running backwards, you're out. Appealed for missing a base, you're out.
My, my, my......where does it say the runner must touch those bases in that order?

Rule 8.3 refers to order and reverse order, but nowhere in book does it state that order.
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Old Fri Oct 15, 2010, 10:25am
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Originally Posted by SRW View Post
So under your logic, B hits the ball, steps on home plate, and stays there. Ball goes to F1 in the circle, never having gone to F3 at 1B. PU calls time.
The big problem here is calling time. Why did PU call time?

Quote:
Award a run because she ran to home and stopped? What if she had just ran from home to 2B straight past F1 and stopped there?
Well, no - shouldn't have stopped play in the first place... but if you did - for whatever reason, your options are detailed above. I would opt for putting the batter-runner on first... but "scoring the run" at least temporarily could be defenseable.

Quote:
It is not only a fundamental game concept to run from the BBox to 1B, 2B, 3B, and HP in that order, but it is rule (ASA 5.5.A.1).
Really? Care to quote that rule?
Quote:
Break the rule by running backwards, you're out.
Are you really going to try to say a BR who simply goes nowhere has created a travesty of the game or attempted to confuse opponents??!?!!
Quote:
Appealed for missing a base, you're out.
Hell yes - of course... and in the OP, this is what the defense should have done.

Quote:
In your O, leaving the runner on 3B not only creates a major disadvantage to the defense,
How???? The defense has no disadvantage, and has an easy appealable out if they'd just bother to take it.

Quote:
Call the out. You don't have any ability or rule to allow you to determine that the offensive team was confused in this situation... only that the offensive confused the fielders.
Out for what?????? The rule you're using says that the offense ran backward with the intent of confusing the defense... If that was not the purpose of the run, then you can't call her out just because the effect was to confuse them. Besides - running directly from the batters box to third base is NOT running the bases backward. It's simply skipping bases.
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Old Fri Oct 15, 2010, 11:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
My, my, my......where does it say the runner must touch those bases in that order?

Rule 8.3 refers to order and reverse order, but nowhere in book does it state that order.
Took you a while this time, Mike. I was looking for this post a few days ago!
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