Watching 10U - BR to 3rd!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SRW

ASA 8.3.D. Dead ball, runner's out.

No book here at work ... which rule is that?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

No book here at work ... which rule is that?

Running the bases in reverse order.
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[MD Longhorn]

I don't believe this can be considered creating a travesty of the game by running the bases in backward order, if you've not achieved home plate legally, then traversing toward third is not running the basepaths backward.

I think the most defensible positions are A) BR made it to third missing (grossly) 1st and 2nd base, and B) BR is simply "no where" - has not achieved 1st base and that's all.

Once time was called, if you go with A, then BR would be out if appealled, and additionally would be out once the pitcher held the ball, if she tried to go ahead and head toward first base (LBR).

If you go with B, the LBR can NEVER come into play - BR has not reached first base ... so LBR is not in effect. Umpire called time, with BR not on a base and no play being made - the only acceptable remedy there is simply placing the runner on 1st.

PU in this situation, on the spot and without the benefit of 4000 internet umpires to help... ... simply told the DC that the runner is on third, and we need to play on. Defense never did appeal the play. Once the next pitch happened, amid all the grumbling directed at me solely because I wore a similar shirt to the umpire in question (!), I told them all they had to do was appeal that she missed 1st or 2nd.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I don't believe this can be considered creating a travesty of the game by running the bases in backward order, if you've not achieved home plate legally, then traversing toward third is not running the basepaths backward.

I agree with your conclusion, but not how you got there. This is definitely running the bases backward, she went to the last numbered base first and if it had been a double, she would have run to second. But the rule says that she has to be running them backward to confuse the defense or make a travesty of the game and I think it's pretty clear she did it because she was confused.
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[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

I agree with your conclusion, but not how you got there. This is definitely running the bases backward, she went to the last numbered base first and if it had been a double, she would have run to second. But the rule says that she has to be running them backward to confuse the defense or make a travesty of the game and I think it's pretty clear she did it because she was confused.

If she had run to 2nd after third, I could more easily see this as running the bases backward.

However, going from the batter's box to third is not going backward ... it's just going to third. She wasn't "on" home... she was just near it.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

If she had run to 2nd after third, I could more easily see this as running the bases backward.

However, going from the batter's box to third is not going backward ... it's just going to third. She wasn't "on" home... she was just near it.

So under your logic, B hits the ball, steps on home plate, and stays there. Ball goes to F1 in the circle, never having gone to F3 at 1B. PU calls time.

Award a run because she ran to home and stopped? What if she had just ran from home to 2B straight past F1 and stopped there?

It is not only a fundamental game concept to run from the BBox to 1B, 2B, 3B, and HP in that order, but it is rule (ASA 5.5.A.1). Break the rule by running backwards, you're out. Appealed for missing a base, you're out.

In your O, leaving the runner on 3B not only creates a major disadvantage to the defense, but you're now in the realm of determining what you think is confusion on the Offensive's part... and they're only 10, so poor little girls? They don't know any better?

No. Wrong.

Call the out. You don't have any ability or rule to allow you to determine that the offensive team was confused in this situation... only that the offensive confused the fielders.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

It is not only a fundamental game concept to run from the BBox to 1B, 2B, 3B, and HP in that order, but it is rule (ASA 5.5.A.1). Break the rule by running backwards, you're out. Appealed for missing a base, you're out.

My, my, my......where does it say the runner must touch those bases in that order?

Rule 8.3 refers to order and reverse order, but nowhere in book does it state that order.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SRW

So under your logic, B hits the ball, steps on home plate, and stays there. Ball goes to F1 in the circle, never having gone to F3 at 1B. PU calls time.

The big problem here is calling time. Why did PU call time?

Award a run because she ran to home and stopped? What if she had just ran from home to 2B straight past F1 and stopped there?

Well, no - shouldn't have stopped play in the first place... but if you did - for whatever reason, your options are detailed above. I would opt for putting the batter-runner on first... but "scoring the run" at least temporarily could be defenseable.

It is not only a fundamental game concept to run from the BBox to 1B, 2B, 3B, and HP in that order, but it is rule (ASA 5.5.A.1).

Really? Care to quote that rule?

Break the rule by running backwards, you're out.

Are you really going to try to say a BR who simply goes nowhere has created a travesty of the game or attempted to confuse opponents??!?!!

Appealed for missing a base, you're out.

Hell yes - of course... and in the OP, this is what the defense should have done.

In your O, leaving the runner on 3B not only creates a major disadvantage to the defense,

How???? The defense has no disadvantage, and has an easy appealable out if they'd just bother to take it.

Call the out. You don't have any ability or rule to allow you to determine that the offensive team was confused in this situation... only that the offensive confused the fielders.

Out for what?????? The rule you're using says that the offense ran backward with the intent of confusing the defense... If that was not the purpose of the run, then you can't call her out just because the effect was to confuse them. Besides - running directly from the batters box to third base is NOT running the bases backward. It's simply skipping bases.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think the most defensible positions are A) BR made it to third missing (grossly) 1st and 2nd base, and B) BR is simply "no where" - has not achieved 1st base and that's all.

Once time was called, if you go with A, then BR would be out if appealled, and additionally would be out once the pitcher held the ball, if she tried to go ahead and head toward first base (LBR).

I would agree with this, and I'm not sure which one is the better option.

Since the PU went with A, then:

Most of the DC's argument was of the form "She can't do that." and "That's just wrong" --- never any concrete anything.

Given the context, I think I would interpret this as a valid appeal. The DC coach is saying that the BR can't go to 3B without first going to 1B (and 2B) thus implying that she missed those bases.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by celebur

Given the context, I think I would interpret this as a valid appeal. The DC coach is saying that the BR can't go to 3B without first going to 1B (and 2B) thus implying that she missed those bases.

Well, it was a dead ball and it was a coach ... so ...

But even so - say a regular player misses a base and the pitcher turns to you and says, "That's just wrong" - you calling an out? I think you need something a little more specific.

OTOH - I'm not faulting an umpire who takes that as an appeal in this case on the field.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Well, it was a dead ball and it was a coach ... so ...

But even so - say a regular player misses a base and the pitcher turns to you and says, "That's just wrong" - you calling an out? I think you need something a little more specific.

OTOH - I'm not faulting an umpire who takes that as an appeal in this case on the field.

Remember, the OP asked about rules that would be different than ASA, too.

In ASA, the coach cannot make that dead ball appeal, it has to be an infielder (including pitcher and catcher). But, Fed would allow it (don't have my NCAA book handy, but believe coach can there, too). That said, most umpires would simply ask the nearest the player "What did coach ask you to ask me??"

But, to the form of the question, I think it is clear that, coach or player, they are trying to make some form of appeal, but haven't asked one that you can address; YET. My response would be something more along the lines of "What you are saying isn't something I can rule on. That isn't a rule violation. Do you have a specific appeal you are trying to make??"

And, no, I don't consider that coaching, as long as there is enough information to understand they are actually trying to make an appeal, it is perfectly acceptable to head in that direction, as long as you don't actually direct them to something they weren't already trying to do, or hand them the information they need to have.