calls at 3B by PU

[Tap]

We've got adult SP, with runners on 1st and 2nd, no outs. BU is inside the diamond, between 2B and pitcher [USSSA mechanics].

Batter hits routine ground ball right at SS who (despite having a 4-run lead in the top of the 7th) does not make the easy play at 2nd, but instead throws to third. I'm PU. Our association, which does USSSA and ASA games, has the PU take plays at 3B in this situation, like the ASA manual says [the USSSA rule book states that BU take first decisions or plays on all bases, but we don't follow that].

I start toward 3B, perhaps a touch late (but I had to make sure to avoid the batter and then stop running to make the call), and the throw goes to F-5, who gets his feet tangled up near the base, probably missed touching the base (may have touched it), but appeared to touch the runner on the chest before he got to 3B, so I call him out, though I may have kicked the call since I didn't have a great angle and the fielder may have missed him.

The hitting team, in the 3B dugout, complains vigorously, but never asks me to get help from my partner, who was probably looking for a play at 2nd anyway. Thus, I don't ask for help and we play on. I'm not sure whether the other umpire had a decent view of it, and asking for help without being prompted may have shown that I was unsure of my call, but should I have asked him for help? The BU is an excellent umpire who may have had a better view. Any thoughts?

[oppool]

You should just stick with your call and play on unless a proper request was made from the offensive coach. Do not ask for help because a lot of holler monkeys from the dugout did not like it. Now if the offensive coach in the proper manner ask you to check with your partner and there is any doubt in your mind then I see no harm in pulling your partner aside and see what he may have or have not seen on the play then you should either stay with or reverse your call.

What I would do after the game if the coach didnt ask for help is ask my partner after the game what he saw on the play just for my own sake and to hopefully learn from


JMO

Don

[Skahtboi]

Tap:

Honestly, there is no shame in ever going to your partner for help, especially if you feel he may have had a better angle on it. There doesn't have to be a request made by either team for you to do this. The important thing is getting the call right. If you feel that he may have had something to add to it, then by all means consult him.

I remember one time when I was still calling slow pitch (USSSA), that i was the BU, making a call at first, facing the west, just as the sun was setting. I made my initial call of out, though I felt that there was a good chance that F3 had pulled his foot from the way the play had gone. Without any questioning from either bench, I called time and went to my partner, who added that F3 had in fact pulled his foot and led to me reversing my initial call of out to safe.


Scott

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Skahtboi
Tap:

Honestly, there is no shame in ever going to your partner for help, especially if you feel he may have had a better angle on it. There doesn't have to be a request made by either team for you to do this. The important thing is getting the call right. If you feel that he may have had something to add to it, then by all means consult him.

I remember one time when I was still calling slow pitch (USSSA), that i was the BU, making a call at first, facing the west, just as the sun was setting. I made my initial call of out, though I felt that there was a good chance that F3 had pulled his foot from the way the play had gone. Without any questioning from either bench, I called time and went to my partner, who added that F3 had in fact pulled his foot and led to me reversing my initial call of out to safe.


Scott

Scott,

I totally disagree. If you made a call, you obviously believed something occured to rule an out. If you didn't, you then give up the call all together, not make it and run to your partner. Once you make that call, that is the call. If the team cannot act in a civil manner and make a simple request, that is their shortcoming, not yours.

[Skahtboi]

So Mike, are you saying that if you think something else may have happened, such as the case that I gave where I was facing the setting sun, but that you aren't sure, you make the call with the information that you have and never seek additional information unless there is a request made by either bench?

I am one of those who believe in getting the call right is more important than ballfield protocol.

Scott

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Skahtboi
So Mike, are you saying that if you think something else may have happened, such as the case that I gave where I was facing the setting sun, but that you aren't sure, you make the call with the information that you have and never seek additional information unless there is a request made by either bench?

I am one of those who believe in getting the call right is more important than ballfield protocol.

Scott

I'm saying that if I'm not sure, I give up the call. If I make a call, I make the call based on what my brain has processed what my eyes tell it they have seen. I have noted before that I cannot make a FYC for the same reason.

Yesterday, I had comparable experiences. On one play, there was a play at first and even though the ball beat the batter, F3 seemed to be searching for the base with his foot. If I had to make a call, I probably would have ruled the runner out based on the ball beating the BR and F3 having plenty of time to hit the bag prior to the BR arriving. But, because I was not sure and I could see my partner was in a position to make the call, I gave it to him and he ruled the BR out. No argument, no complaints, no problem.

On another play in an earlier game, I'm the BU when F4 threw to 3B trying to catch a runner who rounded the base wide. I was already inside as the ball was coming from the OF. Third base was the plate umpire's call, but when I looked up, the PU was nowhere to be found. I verbalize in a low voice safe and then the SS directs me toward the plate where I see the PU, still standing about 7 feet behind HP showing a hammer. Unfortunately, even though I have a great angle, it was "officially" his base, his call, so I backed off. The problem was that this guy is about 65 years old and not at all mobile, so I inappropriately assumed the responsibility for the call.

The offense took offense to this "double-call" and decided to take the opportunity to inform me how bad I sucked as an umpire. I have no problem taking the heat as they had a legitimate complaint about the double call. I could not have done any more than what I did to tell them to talk to the other umpire as I know he would have come to me and the call would have been changed. The team didn't want to hear it, they would rather ***** at me that ask for an appeal. I literally told the idio....er, runner on 2B that all he needs to do is ask the PU to request help. That went nowhere as this guy is too stu....involved to hear what I am saying. Eventually, F4 walked over to the player and said, "Are you stupid? He is telling you how to get your call back and you are just standing there screaming." The player basically ignored him and continued on me.

Regardless, I was not going to go to my partner without being requested even though I know the call is wrong. Like it or not, the teams do have some responsibilities out there.

[Tap]

Mike,

How do you "give up the call"? Do you point to the other umpire, or do you walk out to him and have a private conversation? Just wondering.

On the "throwback" to 3rd, our association (adult SP) has the BU take all those at 3rd and has the PU take all throwbacks to 1st. That's probably not what the ASA umpire manuel says, as I know you know it well, but that's just how we handle it and it seems to work well in terms of getting the best angles.

Thanks.

Steve

[Skahtboi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

The offense took offense to this "double-call"

Pretty darn good pun there, Mike!

This is one of those, I can see your point and will agree to disagree. I have stated my point, and will stick by it, though I can understand yours as well.

Scott

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

If I'm not sure that a defensive player made the out, then I call 'Safe'. This is based upon the premise (that I was taught) not to guess an out. But, if I made the out call, then I'm going to stick by it and not ask my partner for help. Now, if the coach comes out and I'm 100% sure that the proper call was an out, I may not even honor the coach's "ask for help", it depends on the circumstances. If I do ask for help, and my partner overrules me, that means I really kicked the call. Nine times out of ten, the partner is not going to overrule.
If we're talking after the game and I have a doubt still in my mind, I'll ask him, but of course out of earshot of anyone else.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Tap,

The ball is live. If I am blocked out, I'm going to point to my partner. If I am looking for a particular action (pulled foot, tag, etc.), I will point, verbalize my partner's name and indicate what point of action I am taking (Ronny, did he make the tag?) When going to a partner for help after a call, I always keep that conversation private?

Why, Elaine may ask? Other than the rare times a game UIC may need to apply a rule interpretation another umpire may have kicked, an umpire NEVER overrules a partner on a specific call. That is a player/manager's line of thought which is incorrect. A partner offers information to the umpire who made the call. It is then up to that umpire to step back, separate him/herself from their partner(s) and reiterate or change their own ruling. A good umpire should not fear such action as we are all human. I just believe in following the proper protocol.

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

Mike,

I wasn't going to ask as this is exactly how I handle it. I may have not gone to the ASA National Schools, but our Atlanta schools were taught by members of Merle's staff and my long time UIC (until 4 years or so ago) is ISF and was very strict. Believe me, I probably call the same way you do--remember I bleed blue blood!
I'm a little unhappy that you thought I'd question your post above.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Elaine "Lady Blue"
Mike,

I wasn't going to ask as this is exactly how I handle it. I may have not gone to the ASA National Schools, but our Atlanta schools were taught by members of Merle's staff and my long time UIC (until 4 years or so ago) is ISF and was very strict. Believe me, I probably call the same way you do--remember I bleed blue blood!
I'm a little unhappy that you thought I'd question your post above.

Elaine,

I was refering to your verbage. Umpires do not "overrule" their partner, they offer information.

I did not question your mechanics as I have no doubt they would be accurate.