I know it's been covered before, but I can't find the old thread

[SamG]

NSA Rules

R1 on 3rd, no outs.

Ball 4. Catcher returns ball to pitcher in circle. BR runs to 1st, rounds it, goes three steps off (toward 2nd), then stops, and goes back to 1st.

Defense goes nuts and says the pitcher got back on the rubber before BR reached 1st.

Offense makes two claims
1) Pitcher held the ball up to "threaten" a throw
2) BR is entitled to round, stop, and return to 1st as long as it's an immediate stop & return.

Ball WAS in the circle in pitcher's possession when BR touched 1st. I do not know if pitcher was on the rubber.

This is U12, not that it makes a difference but that's why this play is still being used.

I *THINK* under both offensive claims, BR becomes R2 on 1st. Am I correct? Does it make a difference if the pitcher is on the rubber before BR reaches 1st?

Thanks

I do know (or think I do) if offense claim #1 is true, LBR is off.

[SC Ump]

BR rounds first then stops and goes back - One stop is allowed and, if the pitcher has the ball in the circle and is not making a play, the BR must then commit to either go back to first or continue on to second. This is not an infraction.

Defense goes nuts... - They often do.

Offense makes two claims... - They shouldn't have been in the discussion. It sounds like better game control could have been in place.

I do not know if pitcher was on the rubber. - It only matters if the pitcher is in the circle. The pitching plate has nothing to do with the lookback rule. (Baseball has rubbers; softball has pitching plates.)

[SamG]

Thanks. That's what I thought.

Defense complained. BU & PU got together, then called BR out.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by SamG

Thanks. That's what I thought.

Defense complained. BU & PU got together, then called BR out.

[txtrooper]

Speaking ASA, on a walk, if the runner rounds first, commits to second (Umpires Judgement on the 3 steps) and stops, while the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle, its a LBR violation and an out. Although, when the pitcher makes a fake throw, it is considered making a play, no out.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by txtrooper

Speaking ASA, on a walk, if the runner rounds first, commits to second (Umpires Judgement on the 3 steps) and stops, while the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle, its a LBR violation and an out. Although, when the pitcher makes a fake throw, it is considered making a play, no out.

Disagree, Trooper. Runner can round, stop once, then go to 2B or return to 1B. In no case does "committing to second" come into play until after the legal stop.

[txtrooper]

ASA Rule 8, Sec 7, T3 (Look Back Rule) allows the runner to stop in every case? The umpire manual makes reference to and uses the term non-stop within this rule. Our umpire crew and UIC all call it the way I described in the OP. The way you explained it leads me to believe that the runner could run right up to second, stop and then commit to a base (1st or 2nd) without it being a LBR violation?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by txtrooper

ASA Rule 8, Sec 7, T3 (Look Back Rule) allows the runner to stop in every case? The umpire manual makes reference to and uses the term non-stop within this rule. Our umpire crew and UIC all call it the way I described in the OP. The way you explained it leads me to believe that the runner could run right up to second, stop and then commit to a base (1st or 2nd) without it being a LBR violation?

8.7.T.3.a: The batter-runner who rounds first base toward second base may stop once, but then must immediately non-stop return to first base or attempt to adance non-stop to second base.

To me, the rule is quite clear and always has been. The runner is allowed one stop and then must proceed non-stop to one base or the other.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by txtrooper

... (Umpires Judgement on the 3 steps) ...

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Yeah, the "three steps" thing had be confused too. I thought that he was implying a runner had to take a certain number of steps toward second to qualify as "an attempt".

But I went back and read the first post and it has a reference to the runner having taken "three steps" past first base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by txtrooper

Speaking ASA, on a walk, if the runner rounds first, commits to second (Umpires Judgement on the 3 steps) and stops, while the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle, its a LBR violation and an out. Although, when the pitcher makes a fake throw, it is considered making a play, no out.

Are you confusing rounding with overrunning?

[robbie]

Originally Posted by txtrooper

ASA Rule 8, Sec 7, T3 (Look Back Rule) allows the runner to stop in every case? The umpire manual makes reference to and uses the term non-stop within this rule. Our umpire crew and UIC all call it the way I described in the OP. The way you explained it leads me to believe that the runner could run right up to second, stop and then commit to a base (1st or 2nd) without it being a LBR violation?

Correct.

This is ehe example I often use to illustrate the point of allowing the stop.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SamG

NSA Rules

R1 on 3rd, no outs.

Ball 4. Catcher returns ball to pitcher in circle. BR runs to 1st, rounds it, goes three steps off (toward 2nd), then stops, and goes back to 1st.

We have nothing so far... totally legal.

Defense goes nuts and says the pitcher got back on the rubber before BR reached 1st.

Who is "defense"? Players/parents? Ignore. Coach? BRIEF statement that what runner did was legal ... did he ask for time before he came out? Did we grant it?

Offense makes two claims

Why is the offense "claiming" anything? Siddown, coach, I got it.

1) Pitcher held the ball up to "threaten" a throw

Umpire judgement as to whether it was enough to be "a play", but probably a play. LBR off. Offense reminding of this is irrelevant.

2) BR is entitled to round, stop, and return to 1st as long as it's an immediate stop & return.

Thanks, coach, I know that.

Ball WAS in the circle in pitcher's possession when BR touched 1st.

OK... but irrelevant.

I do not know if pitcher was on the rubber.

Doesn't matter. Never matters. Don't care.

Runner safe, move on.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SamG

Thanks. That's what I thought.

Defense complained. BU & PU got together, then called BR out.

For what???? I protest.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by txtrooper

Speaking ASA, on a walk, if the runner rounds first, commits to second (Umpires Judgement on the 3 steps) and stops, while the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle, its a LBR violation and an out. Although, when the pitcher makes a fake throw, it is considered making a play, no out.

Oh no. Find us the rule that says "commits to second" after "three steps". Runner is allowed to continue running in one direction, however far she wants ... stop once, briefly ... decide which way to go, and THEN head to a base (to which she is NOW committed). BR can jog all the way to 1 step short of 2nd base, stop, and return legally.