Foul or Out?

[shipwreck]

Originally Posted by MigoP

Rule 7.4. Art 8. NFHS.

Sorry, wrong rule reference. That rule is talking about making contact with the ball the first time. The OP is asking about making contact with the ball a second time. Dave

[MigoP]

This rule tells you if you make contact with 1 foot out of box, your out of box. If one foot is out of box and runner is hit by fair batted ball, runner is out because he was hit by batted ball before it passed a fielder. The rule cited is to make it clear when a batter is out of box. If her foot is in fair and makes contact with ball, OUT.

[BretMan]

This is a question that's been debated numerous times on this, and other forums (and, I suspect, in clinics, classrooms and on the field).

And I've heard a lot of different good, well-thought out explanations that make sense. One problem is that some of those explanations don't jibe with some of the other ones. The bigger problem is that the precise definition of a batter-runner being "out of the box" on this play isn't presented in the rule book or interpretive literature. That leaves this call up to the interpretation of the individual umpire calling the play and that leads to an unevenly enforced rule and...confusion!

Some theories I've seen:

- If the B/R has one foot on the ground entirely out of the box, then she is out of the box.

- The B/R needs to have both feet out of the box before she is considered to be out of the box.

- If the batted ball hits the B/R over the area of the batter's box, it doesn't matter where her feet are. Consider that as being hit while in the box.

- The umpire should give the benefit of the doubt to the B/R. So long as the contact is made on the B/R's initial step from the box, and the contact is not judged to be intentional, rule this a foul ball.

All good theories that can be backed-up by various rules, interpretations, sound logic or even leaps in logic. But they obviously can't all be correct.

Going off on a bit of a tangent here...In 2010 the Official Baseball Rules finally- after a hundred years!- saw fit to better define this play. They crafted a rule change that says a batter hit by his own fair batted ball while not in his "legal position" is out. They go on to explain that, for the purpose of this rule, his "legal position" is both feet entirely within the batter's box. (Their previous rules didn't define this, but umpires were instructed to rule as in my fourth example above- give the B/R the benefit of the doubt and call it foul).

This isn't to suggest that the softball world should by default accept the OBR ruling, or that their way is the right way, or the only way to handle this. But I offer this example to show that even a stodgy institution resistant to change can recognize that this play needs to be better defined and can adopt some sort of rule to define it. It would be nice to see some of the softball organizations recognize the same need and incorporate a clear definition into their rules.

[greymule]

"In 2010 the Official Baseball Rules finally- after a hundred years!- saw fit to better define this play."

Yes, OBR's definition of foul (unlike ASA's) still doesn't include the ball hitting the batter in the box (but the J/R and other references do). The OBR book, as you note, covers it elsewhere (Section 6) and added clarification this year. Evans presents a couple of pages of notes (some dating to 1942) on the ball hitting the batter in the box in fair territory. (The 1942 notes say that on the first step out of the box, all benefit of doubt goes to the batter.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

BretMan & Greymule,

Who cares about the OBR?

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

BretMan & Greymule,

Who cares about the OBR?

Me and Greymule? C'mon, Mike. I know you're probably just being flippant for flippancy's sake.

I tried to make it clear that I only mentioned OBR as an example of how one sport that is strikingly similar to softball and has a strikingly similar rule for this strikingly similar play might recognize that one element of this rule could be better defined for the sake of all game participants. Why can't we draw an analogy from a sport that shares many identical rules with softball, that softball was based upon from its inception and from which softball copied many of its original rules verbatim?

If the softball rules were more explicit on what constitutes a batter being in or out of the box on this play, then we wouldn't be having this discusion. But they don't, and considering how many times I've seen this question raised, that lack of a definition does seem to cause some confusion.

So let me rephrase this: I wish that the softball rules would publish a definte interpretation of when a batter is either in or out of the batter's box when struck by his own fair batted ball. And they should come up with a definition that is totally independent of what any other similar sport might or might not think about it!

By the way...I really don't like the rule that OBR came up with! It describes a batter being in the box after hitting the ball as the same position he is required to be in prior to the pitch (both feet entirely inside the box). Why not make it the same as the batter's legal position when contacting the pitch with the bat (foot may be extended beyond the lines as long as it's touching the lines and not entirely outside the box).

It seems counter-intuitive to say that the batter's position is legally in the box when hitting the ball, but if the ball then hits he's out of the box in that exact same position!

[MigoP]

In NFHS it is clearly defined in rule 7.4 Art. 8. A batter is out if either foot is entirely out of the box and she hits it foul or fair. NFHS has defined it and instituted it into the rule book. ASA deviates from High School in too many ways. NFHS,OBR, both define it. Get with it asa. 6.03 OBR. The batters legal position shall be with BOTH feet within the batters box. Pretty clear there. 6.06 a OBR. A batter is out for illegal action when he hits ball with one or both feet out of box. 7.08f OBR. Runner is out when hit by fair ball before passing fielder. NFHS 8.6 art 11. Runner is out if struck with a fair untouched batted ball before it passes a fielder. Seems the only book to differ is asa.

[MigoP]

Irishmafia, everyone who is not limited to calling 1 league needs to understand the differences so they can make the right call based on the league their calling. Don't pigeonhole all in 1 league because you choose to stay limited.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by MigoP

Irishmafia, everyone who is not limited to calling 1 league needs to understand the differences so they can make the right call based on the league their calling. Don't pigeonhole all in 1 league because you choose to stay limited.

Please stop driving this rallying cry of yours in every thread. THIS is the softball forum. We discuss softball rules here. The baseball forum is "over there" - they (and sometimes we) discusss baseball rules there. You're right that many umpires cross over - but saying we "should" discuss baseball rules here is like saying they should note the baseball rules in the softball rulebook.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by MigoP

In NFHS it is clearly defined in rule 7.4 Art. 8.

Well, it is if you consider a batter hitting a pitch and a batter being hit by that same batted ball after it left the bat as being one and the same event covered by the exact same rule.

To me, they're not and assuming they are requires that "leap in logic" I refered to in my first post.

Originally Posted by MigoP

NFHS, OBR, both define it....6.03 OBR.

If you read the actual OBR rule, you'll see that they now define a batter being hit by his own batted ball DIFFERENTLY than a batter hitting a pitch, with respect to a being in or out of the batter's box.

That kind of shoots down your logic that both separate events are treated in the exact same manner.

[MigoP]

Take the time to read 7.4 Art.a. NFHS. If you do you no longer have to ask why softball doesn't define it clearly. It's their rule published. 1 foot out, hit the ball, you're out. As to being hit with a fair ball before passing a fielder, all books say the same, you're out. Now if she's still in box and gets hit,foul ball. Pretty simple if you read the NFHS rule