Foul or Out?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by JEL

NFHS but will apply to all I'm certain.

Had question asked last night about FED 7-4-13.

If a batter hits the ball, then steps out of the box with one foot only and then is hit by batted ball do you have a foul, or an out?

There have been two answers given to the asker, and I have also received two from a few umpires.

What is your ruling?

Where was the ball when it hit the batter/batter-runner? If it was over foul territory, I don't care where the runner's foot was.

[DeputyUICHousto]

If the ball was over foul territory when it hit the batter/runner then its foul. If its over fair territory then I have an out.

[greymule]

My conclusion is that stepping with one foot completely out of the batter's box is out of the batter's box; no matter what rule you reference.

I think that's the correct reading of the rule. In the real world, however, it's more "ball hits batter" is foul, and "batter hits ball" is an out.

For example, if a bunt hits the plate and bounces straight up, and then the BR runs into the ball or her first step toward 1B, that's virtually always called foul. Of course, it's usually hard to tell exactly where the foot was when the ball hit the BR, so a call of foul usually gets no argument.

But if the bunt rolls in front of the plate and the BR steps on it with her foot completely out of the box, that's an out.

Confusion also arises when the ball bounces up and hits the bat or the BR over fair territory, but the batter's feet are both in the box. Foul ball.

[shipwreck]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

If the ball was over foul territory when it hit the batter/runner then its foul. If its over fair territory then I have an out.

Since part of the batter's box is in fair territory, I disagree with you. Dave

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

If the ball was over foul territory when it hit the batter/runner then its foul. If its over fair territory then I have an out.

what if it hits tem inside the batters box, in fair ground.

[MigoP]

Rule 7.4. Art 8. NFHS.

[shipwreck]

Originally Posted by MigoP

Rule 7.4. Art 8. NFHS.

Sorry, wrong rule reference. That rule is talking about making contact with the ball the first time. The OP is asking about making contact with the ball a second time. Dave

[MigoP]

This rule tells you if you make contact with 1 foot out of box, your out of box. If one foot is out of box and runner is hit by fair batted ball, runner is out because he was hit by batted ball before it passed a fielder. The rule cited is to make it clear when a batter is out of box. If her foot is in fair and makes contact with ball, OUT.

[BretMan]

This is a question that's been debated numerous times on this, and other forums (and, I suspect, in clinics, classrooms and on the field).

And I've heard a lot of different good, well-thought out explanations that make sense. One problem is that some of those explanations don't jibe with some of the other ones. The bigger problem is that the precise definition of a batter-runner being "out of the box" on this play isn't presented in the rule book or interpretive literature. That leaves this call up to the interpretation of the individual umpire calling the play and that leads to an unevenly enforced rule and...confusion!

Some theories I've seen:

- If the B/R has one foot on the ground entirely out of the box, then she is out of the box.

- The B/R needs to have both feet out of the box before she is considered to be out of the box.

- If the batted ball hits the B/R over the area of the batter's box, it doesn't matter where her feet are. Consider that as being hit while in the box.

- The umpire should give the benefit of the doubt to the B/R. So long as the contact is made on the B/R's initial step from the box, and the contact is not judged to be intentional, rule this a foul ball.

All good theories that can be backed-up by various rules, interpretations, sound logic or even leaps in logic. But they obviously can't all be correct.

Going off on a bit of a tangent here...In 2010 the Official Baseball Rules finally- after a hundred years!- saw fit to better define this play. They crafted a rule change that says a batter hit by his own fair batted ball while not in his "legal position" is out. They go on to explain that, for the purpose of this rule, his "legal position" is both feet entirely within the batter's box. (Their previous rules didn't define this, but umpires were instructed to rule as in my fourth example above- give the B/R the benefit of the doubt and call it foul).

This isn't to suggest that the softball world should by default accept the OBR ruling, or that their way is the right way, or the only way to handle this. But I offer this example to show that even a stodgy institution resistant to change can recognize that this play needs to be better defined and can adopt some sort of rule to define it. It would be nice to see some of the softball organizations recognize the same need and incorporate a clear definition into their rules.

[JEL]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Where was the ball when it hit the batter/batter-runner? If it was over foul territory, I don't care where the runner's foot was.

That of course is true, but assume it was fair.