Foul or Out?

[AtlUmpSteve]

This situation has been discussed on this and other boards before. I don't believe anyone has ever been able to get a verified rules reference specific to this situation; so everyone answers based on what they have been told, or how they think it should be ruled.

I would reference every other game situation I can think of for equivalent rulings. If a batter contacts the ground with one foot completely out of the batter's box and contacts the ball with the bat, the batter is "out of the batter's box". If a batter-runner contacts the ground with one foot completely out of the running lane, the batter-runner is out of the running lane. If a pitcher contacts the ground with one foot completely out of the pitching circle, the pitcher is out of the circle with regard to the lookback rule. If a fielder steps with one foot completely into dead ball territory, the fielder is in dead ball territory.

Conversely, I cannot think of any situation where a player steps completely into an area with one foot where that player does not establish position in that new area. There may be one, but it isn't coming to me right now.

My conclusion is that stepping with one foot completely out of the batter's box is out of the batter's box; no matter what rule you reference. JMO.

[Tex]

Foul ball

[scottk_61]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

My conclusion is that stepping with one foot completely out of the batter's box is out of the batter's box; no matter what rule you reference. JMO.

I remember specifically being given this same statement (almost verbatim) at the Advanced School by Merle and Henry.
Of coursed that was a few years back but I don't imagine ASA has changed anything that would make this incorrect.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by scottk_61

I remember specifically being given this same statement (almost verbatim) at the Advanced School by Merle and Henry.
Of coursed that was a few years back but I don't imagine ASA has changed anything that would make this incorrect.

Cool. So two highly respected ASA umpires and clinicians have offered a concrete guideline for calling this play. Of course, the fact that they needed to define it themselves does kind of illustrate the fact that a definition is lacking in the rule book.

So if that's the way they want it called, why can't they include that in the rule book or umpire manual for the benefit of the other 30,000 ASA umpires that weren't fortunate enough to attend this one clinic!

[CecilOne]

I don't have time to search for the sources, but I remember this as only one foot has to be out in ASA, PONY, NCAA and some others; but both feet have to be out in NFHS and USSSA. Of course, this only applies if the ball is fair.

[MigoP]

Bret. You answered your own question in your last post. Rule 7.4 Art.a. NFHS. defines what is considered out of the batters box. Your first question answered. The next 2 rules you want us to read 7-2-1f. 8-2-6 define what the penalty's are for being out of box. It doesn't matter if the batter or runner is hit with their own or someone elses batted ball. If it doesn't pass an infielder your out. If it's your own batted ball and you have 1 foot outside the box when contacted by fair batted ball, your out.
The OBR rules I cited 6.03. 6.06a. Say exactly what I said they say. Everyone with a book feel free to read for yourselves. Which kind of implies you didn't take the time to read them. There is no leap in logic, as both books say the same thing. The only leap in logic is not reading the rules as written. They both have rules defining out of the box, and both have rules defining being hit with a batted ball. The only question is if it's your own batted ball, were your feet still in box or has 1 foot left box. Both feet in box,hits you,foul. 1 foot completely out of box and it hits you, out.
You don't have to attend a clinic for this one as they have incorporated these rules in the book already. Read, read and re-read,the answers usually there.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by MigoP

Bret. You answered your own question in your last post. Rule 7.4 Art.a. NFHS. defines what is considered out of the batters box.

The rules define what's considered being "out of the box" prior to receiving the pitch. They also define being "out of the box" when the pitch is contacted with the bat. Those are two separate and distinct scenarios, covered by two different rules, each that have their own different requirements.

For a batted ball hitting the batter-runner, that is a third scenario, a completely different game action. Is it inconceivable that a scenario completely different than the other two might have a different definition for being "out of the box"?

We have here three different scenarios where the umpire has to rule that the "batter is out of the box" (let's call them "A", "B" and "C", respectively). We know that the definition in "A" is not the same as in "B". "C" is not specifically defined in the rule that applies to this play.

If we just assume that "C" is the same as "B"...there is your "leap in logic".

Originally Posted by MigoP

If it's your own batted ball and you have 1 foot outside the box when contacted by fair batted ball, your out.

True- if you've already made the leap in logic of applying the definition from the rule covering one specific game action to this completely different game action.

Originally Posted by MigoP

The OBR rules I cited 6.03. 6.06a. Say exactly what I said they say. Everyone with a book feel free to read for yourselves. Which kind of implies you didn't take the time to read them.

I didn't read them? Right. I must have the OBR rule book memorized to the point that I can quote the exact rule number of the exact rule that applies here without looking in the book. I'm good, but I'm not that good...

But, no, the OBR does not say "exactly what you said they say." It doesn't say that being "in the box" for a batter being hit by his own batted ball is defined exactly the same as when a batter contacts the pitch with the bat. It defines it as the same foot position when a batter is in the box prior to the pitch. I believe that there is a flaw in how their rule is written, but that is how it is written.

Might be a worthy topic for discussion...on the baseball forum.

Originally Posted by MigoP

You don't have to attend a clinic for this one as they have incorporated these rules in the book already. Read, read and re-read,the answers usually there.

I think that if the rule book did have a clear definition of being "out of the box" on this play, then this question wouldn't pop up time and again and you wouldn't have so many different answers and interpretations being given here by so many different, knowledgable, qualified umpires.

The fact that it's being debated here is evidence that the printed rule is unclear.

And that is really my point. I'm not saying that "one foot out of the box" wouldn't be a good standard to apply, or that you're nuts for thinking it should apply. I'm saying that as the rules are currently written, an umpire is forced to assume that the requirements of one rule, covering one situation, apply uniformly to a different situation covered in a different rule. That just seems to me like a bad way to come up with a ruling. Why not add wording to the rule that better defines it and eliminates the need for that leap in logic?

[MigoP]

The 1st rule defines where the batters feet need to be in the box on contact or she's out. 7.4. art.a. NFHS.
Rule 7.3 art 1.penalty NFHS. A batter can have 1 foot out of the box prior to delivery of pitch. She does so at the risk of having a strike called while being out of position. If the pitch is a strike when she has 1 foot out it shall be called a strike or ball accordingly. 7.3 art 1. effects 2. NFHS. She does not have to stay in box during or prior to pitch but must accept ball or srike call.
Rule 7.2 art 1 f. NFHS. A strike is called if a batted ball contacts the batter in the batters box.(foul ball).
Rule 8.6 art.11. NFHS. The runner is out when struck with a fair untouched batted ball while not in contact with a base and before it passes an infielder. Since the previous rule defines hit by batted ball in box as foul, the latter rule defines hit by batted ball out of box,(out). Theses are NFHS rules not OBR.
For you folks who need it in just softball rules I believe this should cover it. All NFHS rulings. I would like to hear some of you please cite me Softball rules NFHS that are contrary to these. They are very clear.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Cool. So two highly respected ASA umpires and clinicians have offered a concrete guideline for calling this play. Of course, the fact that they needed to define it themselves does kind of illustrate the fact that a definition is lacking in the rule book

I don't think it is that difficult to understand ASA's take on in/out of the box. To me, the demands of rule is clear, and as stated earlier, you are in the box until you are out of it.

Touching the ground outside of the line of the batter's box, visible or perceived, is out of the box. For a legal pitch to be thrown, the entire foot must be inside the lines. To legally hit the ball, a foot must not be completely outside of the lines. And since the foot must be on the ground to be out of the box, a foot off the ground is......well, just a foot off the ground. The rules also state that a batter may not leave the box then re-enter it and hit the ball. Does that mean if the batter jumps straight up in the air and then lands in the box they (thats for you, Tom) have left the box? Of course, not. Why? Because the batter's foot/feet did not touch completely outside of the lines.

Since the discussion is hitting the ball, this is the application to which the umpire (in ASA) should refer.