Your chance to wipe out a bad mechanic

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by topper

I thought the issue was what keeps more of the field/play in front of you. I don't see how jerking your head back and forth from home to second as the play at second develops then trying to move back "in the way" to see it is more advantageous than taking the runner from 1st to second from the outside.

And yes, I REALLY do think it's a better view of the play.

1B to 2B, yes, that's fine. However, you're still behind the runner if they should attempt to advance to 3B on an errant throw.

[topper]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Yes, but now you've got some catching up to do because you're trailing the runner, which is the absolute worst place to be when making a call.

I'm not sure how far behind I'd be, unless they neither slide nor slow up into the bag. That slight risk is by far out weighed by having more of the entire sequence in front of me. Besides, PU doesn't have anything left to do.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

The problem comes when you have an advanced umpire with an inexperienced one. Whose mechanics should dictate the other's behavior?

When working ASA it's a moot point.

When not, I would think the more advanced official would suggest doing some things differently and explaining why. That's what we do at every camp I've been a part of.

[topper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

What? That is the perfect spot to be in. From behind there's a lot of opportunities to be blocked from either the tag or the foot hitting the bag (or obstruction for that matter by the SS's feet).

You're still talking only about seeing the play at second. The discussion is about keeping everything in front of you.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I will admit that in my area I do rim on one and only one play - and only because I've asked my UIC and have approval (others do this here too). When R1 from first is heading to 2nd on a WP or PB - and there's no chance of a play at 2nd, but a decent chance of a play at 3rd. I'd rather stay ahead of the runner than wait and cross in.

I quess your UIC doesn't mind if the PU just hangs out at home. Maybe someone should explain to him/her, and you for that matter, that the subsequent play at 3rd should be covered by the PU.

Unfortunately, since I do live in the Houston area, this wouldn't surprise me of some of the UICs/assignors I know.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by topper

You're still talking only about seeing the play at second. The discussion is about keeping everything in front of you.

I thought the discussion was about which was better. I prefer, on this play, getting a better angle on the relevant play rather than keeping everything in front of me at the risk of being blocked (and behind the play should it develop toward third).

I quess your UIC doesn't mind if the PU just hangs out at home. Maybe someone should explain to him/her, and you for that matter, that the subsequent play at 3rd should be covered by the PU.

Unfortunately, since I do live in the Houston area, this wouldn't surprise me of some of the UICs/assignors I know.

Wow, that was uncalled for.

We are all aware that this is normally PU's responsibility. However, if this is discussed at pregame it's not an issue - and it saves PU a few steps - probably a little more important down in 100 degree 100% humidity land than elsewhere.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by topper

I'm not sure how far behind I'd be, unless they neither slide nor slow up into the bag. That slight risk is by far out weighed by having more of the entire sequence in front of me. Besides, PU doesn't have anything left to do.

Assuming there are no other runners, taking the last runner to 3B should always be the BU's responsibility. PU should be preparing for a play at the plate. Priorities.

Originally Posted by topper

When working ASA it's a moot point.

But we're not talking about keeping what this association or that association wants. We're talking about what WE want as officials. So no, it's not a moot point.

Originally Posted by topper

When not, I would think the more advanced official would suggest doing some things differently and explaining why. That's what we do at every camp I've been a part of.

That can be dangerous if done with a truly inexperienced umpire. You'd have to pre-game it extensively and in an environment where you can afford to make those adjustments. Doing this in the finals would be bad timing.

Not to mention the fact that first and foremost, our main concern as veteran umpires tasked with bringing up the rookies is to give them the building blocks from which to grow. By starting off doing something different from the prescribed mechanics, you're not doing them any favors as a mentor.

Originally Posted by topper

You're still talking only about seeing the play at second. The discussion is about keeping everything in front of you.

Yes, and we should be ready for subsequent plays. Never compromise getting a good look at a play if it means getting behind the runner at your next play. It may work for 9 out of 10 plays, but it's that 10th play that'll bite you in the @$$.

Originally Posted by topper

I quess your UIC doesn't mind if the PU just hangs out at home. Maybe someone should explain to him/her, and you for that matter, that the subsequent play at 3rd should be covered by the PU.

Yes, the PU and BU are a team. And it's a team that works in priorities. As far as I'm concerned, the priorities on the bases start with home plate and work their way backwards. This is why the BU takes the trailing plays at 3rd, as well as the last runner or batter-runner. A blown call at 2nd or 3rd doesn't sting quite so badly as a blown call at home plate.

Originally Posted by topper

Unfortunately, since I do live in the Houston area, this wouldn't surprise me of some of the UICs/assignors I know.

Won't even touch this one with a 10 foot pole, especially considering there are involved parties present on this board.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by topper

Single runner at 2nd, base hit to OF, play at plate. Where would you rather be for the catcher's throw to back to 2nd?

There are others, but you only asked for 1.

Inside so I'm not making a call from behind the play. I don't know about you, but I don't have a problem staying out of possible throwing lanes and still be set up to see a throw, tag and play; And in position to easily take the runner to 3rd should there be a misplay at 2B.

[topper]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Assuming there are no other runners, taking the last runner to 3B should always be the BU's responsibility. PU should be preparing for a play at the plate. Priorities.

The play at the plate is over, hence the throw back to 2nd.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

But we're not talking about keeping what this association or that association wants. We're talking about what WE want as officials. So no, it's not a moot point.

ASA isn't concerned about what WE want as umpires. That's why it's moot.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

That can be dangerous if done with a truly inexperienced umpire. You'd have to pre-game it extensively and in an environment where you can afford to make those adjustments. Doing this in the finals would be bad timing.

Not to mention the fact that first and foremost, our main concern as veteran umpires tasked with bringing up the rookies is to give them the building blocks from which to grow. By starting off doing something different from the prescribed mechanics, you're not doing them any favors as a mentor.

You said we are not keeping what "this association or that association wants", so what prescription are we going by? Why teach a new umpire mechanics only to try to un-teach those mechanics later?

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Yes, and we should be ready for subsequent plays. Never compromise getting a good look at a play if it means getting behind the runner at your next play. It may work for 9 out of 10 plays, but it's that 10th play that'll bite you in the @$$.

So the next "possible" play is more important that the one right in front of us. Interesting!

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Yes, the PU and BU are a team. And it's a team that works in priorities. As far as I'm concerned, the priorities on the bases start with home plate and work their way backwards. This is why the BU takes the trailing plays at 3rd, as well as the last runner or batter-runner. A blown call at 2nd or 3rd doesn't sting quite so badly as a blown call at home plate.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what this means.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Won't even touch this one with a 10 foot pole, especially considering there are involved parties present on this board.

To say that I am sorry if I offended anyone would be disingenuous. And no, I am not an "involved party".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by topper

Are you saying that keeping more of the field/play in front of you is not advantageous?

That is not always true and is part of the falacy.

[topper]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Inside so I'm not making a call from behind the play. I don't know about you, but I don't have a problem staying out of possible throwing lanes and still be set up to see a throw, tag and play; And in position to easily take the runner to 3rd should there be a misplay at 2B.

How is the back side 90 behind the play? Where do you make a call from on a steal of 2nd?

I don't know about you IRISH, but from the C slot with a runner on 2nd, on a base hit, I'm busting it over to pick up the BR as he/she rounds 1st. So, are you saying that you can be inside, following the runner to 2nd, seeing the play at home and the throw back to 2nd, moving to the SS side of 2nd to get the best view of the play while staying out of the throwing lane? Please.

Of course, the only way I could see all of this take place from the field is by being outside to begin with. I thought the we were talking about which position was more advantageous to keeping things in front of us. Right?

[topper]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That is not always true and is part of the falacy.

What is "the " falacy"?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by topper

What is "the " falacy"?

The falacy is when people preach about having everything in front of you. Unless the umpire works from foul territory, they are not going to have everything in front of them any more than an umpire working I/O.

You know, this isn't anything new to me. I was working outside in the 90's for BP. It took a lot for the crews to digest since there was little to no training, but we all got it by the second day. Then again, that was national qualified umpires in a three-umpire system. But we also learned that it did not fit every situation even when some others would prescribe it.

And I have worked it recently in some local womens/18U games, but not exclusively. The problem that I see often are umpires who take the mechanic to the grave whether the situation calls for an adjustment or not.

[topper]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The problem that I see often are umpires who take the mechanic to the grave whether the situation calls for an adjustment or not.

I don't think I ever said that outside was ALWAYS the best or only option. That would be extemely short-sighted.

You were the one that challenged anyone to come up wtih a situation where rimming was advantageous to I/O. So who is taking a mechanic to the grave?

I have not seen where ASA allows for much "adjustment" anyway.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by topper

How is the back side 90 behind the play? Where do you make a call from on a steal of 2nd?

Often from directly behind 2B, since the 90 across the front of the base isn't always, in sme areas rarely, the location of the tag. But I would always prefer to have an inside look at a tag play than have to make a call from the backside where you may not actually see a tag or lose a dropped ball.

I don't know about you IRISH, but from the C slot with a runner on 2nd, on a base hit, I'm busting it over to pick up the BR as he/she rounds 1st. So, are you saying that you can be inside, following the runner to 2nd, seeing the play at home and the throw back to 2nd, moving to the SS side of 2nd to get the best view of the play while staying out of the throwing lane? Please.

Hell, that's easy. Why do you think you have to "bust" inside. Once SS clears, I simply move just inside the diamond, watch the BR touch 1st and am set to follow that player into 2B and almost be in a 90 looking across the front of the base and on the same side as the ball and player making a tag. If a throw is coming from the OF, I'm right there. If the throw is coming from 3B, I'm inside the diamond out of the throwing lane. If the throw is coming from home, I'm still to the catcher's left and she has a clear throwing lane.

Of course, the only way I could see all of this take place from the field is by being outside to begin with. I thought the we were talking about which position was more advantageous to keeping things in front of us. Right?

I disagree. Being on the outside of a play is no more advantageous since it will often place the runner between the umpire and the ball.

But lets talk about keeping everything in front of you. IMO, this really isn't going to happen in any more cases from the outside than from the inside. Why are people worried about keeping a ball rolling to the fence in front of you. Big deal, you turn your head to watch the BR hit 1B, you have to do that from the outside, also, unless you are working in foul territory and, unless you are in a 3-umpire format and preparing to rotate home, you shouldn't be there on a ball to the OF.

I have no problem with qualified umpires working the system when the situation fits. I do have a problem with people who act like this is some type of super-mechanic that is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by topper

I don't think I ever said that outside was ALWAYS the best or only option. That would be extemely short-sighted.

You were the one that challenged anyone to come up wtih a situation where rimming was advantageous to I/O. So who is taking a mechanic to the grave?

You must have one helluva guilty conscience. Did I say you?

I have not seen where ASA allows for much "adjustment" anyway.

Well, folks can scoff all they please, but Chuck said it earlier. Training that many people to execute an advanced method and being able to recognize when it would be helpful is problematic. I've said it before on this board and I'll repeat what BP said. ASA needs to forget about the Advanced Umpire School (now Camp) and replace it with a School for Advanced Umpiring.

Most of the umpires I see stay outside do so out of laziness and god help the team who cuts a throw home and shoots it back to 3B 'cause there ain't gonna be an umpire there to make the call.

[topper]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Hell, that's easy. Why do you think you have to "bust" inside. Once SS clears, I simply move just inside the diamond, watch the BR touch 1st and am set to follow that player into 2B and almost be in a 90 looking across the front of the base and on the same side as the ball and player making a tag. If a throw is coming from the OF, I'm right there. If the throw is coming from 3B, I'm inside the diamond out of the throwing lane. If the throw is coming from home, I'm still to the catcher's left and she has a clear throwing lane..

So if the BR doesn't go to 2nd, you are standing there "just inside the diomand" making a call on any play at 1st from 60' away?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I have no problem with qualified umpires working the system when the situation fits. I do have a problem with people who act like this is some type of super-mechanic that is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Working the system when the situation fits is what makes an umpire. It's a shame ASA doesn't feel the same way. I'm pleasantly surprised to see you off the reservation.