Keystone Kops ending. Probable blown call.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The OP clearly states that when the throw went to first, THE BR WAS THERE. What more do you want?

This may be the crux of our disagreement. No. It doesn't. Not even close. BR was not "there" until after an umpire huddle and an announcement of where baserunners should go ... in fact, it emphasizes the "NOW" as in ... NOW, after we've done all this, BR is there - but we don't know if he was there earlier. It ABSOLUTELY (I just read it) does not say he was there when the throw went to first. THIS is what I have a problem with - when the throw goes there, surely SOMEONE watched it go - and would know where BR was when the ball got there.

I think you have clearly missed the OPs statements and seem to be looking to slam someone. The only, ONLY discussion is whether the BR entered DBT.

I am NOT looking to slam someone. Reread the OP. The batter is not mentioned until AFTER the umpire huddle and announcement. If the discussion is about whether he went into DBT or not, I agree with your other statements... to me, that's not the discussion. The discussion is about whether BR was safe or not and how the umpires could have missed that. Surely you can see why I took your statement that you can't see everything as appalling considering what I thought we were talking about.

From the OP:

Totally our fault, but in all the confusion we lost track of him. Of course he's standing there NOW, but the defense says he wasn't there when the throw went to first. I can tell that the defense isn't trying to snow us. And I now have a creeping suspicion that we mistook either the original runner on 1st or maybe the base coach for the batter. But neither my partner nor I could definitively say that the batter HADN'T been on first

The OP does not say that the defense is saying he went into DBT on his way to first. It doesn't say that PU and BU are worried about whether he went to DBT. To put what I'm trying to say in 1 sentence, it says, VERY clearly,

THEY DON'T KNOW WHETHER BR WAS ON FIRST WHEN THE THROW WENT OVER.

This is my complaint.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

This may be the crux of our disagreement. No. It doesn't. Not even close. BR was not "there" until after an umpire huddle and an announcement of where baserunners should go ... in fact, it emphasizes the "NOW" as in ... NOW, after we've done all this, BR is there - but we don't know if he was there earlier. It ABSOLUTELY (I just read it) does not say he was there when the throw went to first. THIS is what I have a problem with - when the throw goes there, surely SOMEONE watched it go - and would know where BR was when the ball got there.

I am NOT looking to slam someone. Reread the OP. The batter is not mentioned until AFTER the umpire huddle and announcement. If the discussion is about whether he went into DBT or not, I agree with your other statements... to me, that's not the discussion. The discussion is about whether BR was safe or not and how the umpires could have missed that. Surely you can see why I took your statement that you can't see everything as appalling considering what I thought we were talking about.

From the OP: The OP does not say that the defense is saying he went into DBT on his way to first. It doesn't say that PU and BU are worried about whether he went to DBT. To put what I'm trying to say in 1 sentence, it says, VERY clearly,

THEY DON'T KNOW WHETHER BR WAS ON FIRST WHEN THE THROW WENT OVER.

This is my complaint.

Here's the pertinent point of the OP.

OK so we've got a force out at 2nd. But on the throw to third, there's no tag, and since the force play is off, we've got him safe. So we say 2 outs, runners at 1st and 3rd.

BUT the defense says they have an out at 1st, too, because they claim the batter never went to first. We say, NO, when the throw went to 1st the batter was there.But they're insisting that the batter walked back to his bench (on the first base side) because he had thought the ball was caught in LCF.

We huddle up again. And here's the problem: neither of us watched the batter. Totally our fault, but in all the confusion we lost track of him. Of course he's standing there NOW, but the defense says he wasn't there when the throw went to first.

Point # 1: The umpires saw someone they took for the BR at first when the throw was made. See the first quote in Blue above.

Point #2: It was the defense who said he was not there when the throw went to first. Not the umpires. See the 2nd quote in Blue above.