U2 Blown Call

[Cubbies87]

13yr old regular season game - FED Rules
R2, 1 out

B1 hits fly ball to F7 who catches it. While the ball is in the air, the third base coach is screaming, "Come on, come on, 2 outs, 2 outs!" R2, believing his coach, is running with the fly. After the catch, he stops short of 3rd, takes off his helmet, and starts walking towards his dugout. The defense is walking/jogging to their dugout.

Before all of the fielders have left the field, and before R2 passes the mound, the offensive coach wises up and yells to R2 from the dugout, "Go back! Touch 3rd and run home!" The catcher turns to me, "was that only the second out?"

I'm standing on first baseline extended, waiting for a surge of activity on a play at the plate, and before anything can happen, my field ump calls R2 out. The coach on offense brings his runner in without much protest because everyone was discombobulated, but informs U2 he made the wrong call. U2 decides to tell the coach that he called the runner out for leaving the baseline on his way to the dugout. The coach promptly responds correctly that the runner is only out for leaving the basepath if he is avoiding a tag. U2 says, "Well coach, I've made my call, and the runner is out."

U2 doesn't ask me for help, nobody asks U2 to ask me for help, and nobody asks me for help. In the next half inning, a coach walks up to me and asks, "So did he botch that call?" I simply respond, "My partner felt the runner abondoned his effort to advance. The players should be aware of the game situation."

Now, I knew U2 blew the call, and I was ready to hit R2 with a warning for removing his helemet in live ball territory, but was I right in not "overruling" my partner? Nobody asked for help and nobody seemed to be real upset, and with all the talk we have about not overruling a partner and showing a united front, I just kept my mouth shut. But, if I know for a fact that a rule is being enforced incorrectly, do I have an obligation to fix the application, and if so, how would I have in that situation? Yelled that R2 was not out and try and see the play develop? That sounds like a much worse option.

[David B]

I don't think it was that obvious of a missed call.

If he stopped short of third, removes his helmet, and it nearly to the mound before the coach starts to yell at him, I'm going to call him out also.

Blame the coach for instigating it all. He deserves to have the out called.

Sure its only a warning for removing the helmet, but the runner does have a baseline he was heading to third.

So, he abandoned his efforts to run the bases and should be called out IMO.

Now, the BR is protected all the way to dead ball territory, but this is not the BR, its a base runner and the obligations are different.

FED rules state 8-4-2p (note) - any runner who leaves the baseline heading for the dugout or his defensive position believing that there is no further play shall be declared out if the umpires judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases.

So I don't think that was such a bad call at all.

Thanks
David

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Cubbies87

Before all of the fielders have left the field, and before R2 passes the mound, the offensive coach wises up and yells to R2 from the dugout, "Go back! Touch 3rd and run home!" The catcher turns to me, "was that only the second out?"

Wait a second here. Touch third and run home? He has to go all the way back and touch second. He was off the base when it was caught.

Ok well he made the wrong call, but I don't think that there is anything you can do about it. So he calls him out, so you say no he is not out. You two are arguing about it in the middle of playing action. What is R2 going to do. One guy says safe one says out. This is not like when the ball is dead and you talk about a call. The ball is still live. I think once this call is made, you guys are stuck with it.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by David B
Sure its only a warning for removing the helmet, but the runner does have a baseline he was heading to third.

So, he abandoned his efforts to run the bases and should be called out IMO.

Now, the BR is protected all the way to dead ball territory, but this is not the BR, its a base runner and the obligations are different.

FED rules state 8-4-2p (note) - any runner who leaves the baseline heading for the dugout or his defensive position believing that there is no further play shall be declared out if the umpires judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases.

So I don't think that was such a bad call at all.

Thanks
David

But R2 was not even to the mound yet. So how far was he out of the baseline? 10 feet. I see I was wrong in my post. I was thinking as if he were the BR, like on a dropped third strike. But I think you would have to be there to see exaclty how far out of the baseline he was. I know the rule says "leaves the baseline" But if he takes three steps out of the baseline, and then realizes what is going on, I don't think he should be called out.

[Rich]

Originally posted by LDUB

But R2 was not even to the mound yet. So how far was he out of the baseline? 10 feet. I see I was wrong in my post. I was thinking as if he were the BR, like on a dropped third strike. But I think you would have to be there to see exaclty how far out of the baseline he was. I know the rule says "leaves the baseline" But if he takes three steps out of the baseline, and then realizes what is going on, I don't think he should be called out.

But this is a judgment call -- and is left up to the umpire. So there's no way it can be "wrong" if the calling umpire thinks the runner abandoned.

[David B]

But R2 was not even to the mound yet. So how far was he out of the baseline? 10 feet. I see I was wrong in my post. I was thinking as if he were the BR, like on a dropped third strike. But I think you would have to be there to see exaclty how far out of the baseline he was. I know the rule says "leaves the baseline" But if he takes three steps out of the baseline, and then realizes what is going on, I don't think he should be called out.

I don't have time to look it up, but there's a case play in FED "I think I remember it" where the runner thinks he is out and heads to the bench only taking a few steps and the ruling is that he is to be called out.

Again, this is umpires judgement, but again since the coach caused this I'm going to lean heavily toward the out since he is the one who screwed up to start with.

thanks
David

[Edited by David B on May 3rd, 2004 at 01:07 AM]

[jicecone]

I think you handled it correctly, however, it is obvious your partner needs to review these situations. Had he explained it the same way you did, there would have been less questioning by the coach. (At least I would hope so)

I would have gotten together with him after the game and gone over the base path scenario. I would also have explained that there was a good chance he got the call right by accident and therefore it didn't matter because the outcome would have been the same. The next time though, it MAY be handled differently, knowing the correct set of rules that would apply to the situation.

The removing of the helmet is only a warning, wether you like the rule or not.

[Cubbies87]

If R2 is out for "abandoning his efforts" to run the bases for a couple steps out of the basepath (assuming he thinks there is no more play), why is the BR protected all the way until he steps foot into the dugout? During the play I was thinking along the lines that R2 would have nearly as much time as a BR would to figure out the error. But, as it has been pointed out, a runner doesn't get nearly the same margin of error as a BR. What is special about the BR that he can screw up for so long while his teamates can barely flinch (pardon the exaggeration)?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Runners can run nearly anywhere until someone is between them and the base with a ball - now they must run directly at the base or directly back to the previous.

BASEPATH is not established until a defender is present and ready to make a tag. Up until then the runners can round the corners, step back away from the direct path between bases, wander into the outfield, or whatever.

I'm not convinced abandonement is the right answer. The defense also abandoned their opportunity to make the out. HTBT.

[TriggerMN]

Isn't there some "skunk in the barnyard" play like this? Can anyone give a quick explanation or provide a link?

[David B]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Runners can run nearly anywhere until someone is between them and the base with a ball - now they must run directly at the base or directly back to the previous.

BASEPATH is not established until a defender is present and ready to make a tag. Up until then the runners can round the corners, step back away from the direct path between bases, wander into the outfield, or whatever.

I'm not convinced abandonement is the right answer. The defense also abandoned their opportunity to make the out. HTBT.

I understand about the basepath, but remember this is FED rules and they have the case book that has similiar plays in which the runner is called out.

I'll try and look it up when I have time to see if the BRD or others sources have more info.

But you are right, I've let them wonder off several steps before and called nothing unless IMO I thought they really had abandoned the base.

That's why I guess the rule book leaves it to umpire judgement, and then its not able to be argued.

Thanks
David

[mcrowder]

There is a huge difference between "skunk in right field" (which is intentional and does not involve the baserunner abandoning the bases) and walking off the base toward a dugout thinking the play is over (which DOES involve abandonment).

I think I call this kid out too (althought obviously HTBT). The removal of the helmet is an added clue into the fact that the runner had abandoned his base.

Now, regarding your true question in a more general sense...

If a rule is misinterpreted, the umpires must confer and fix the situation, including placing runners where they should go. Let's change your scenario a bit, leaving the runners helmet on, and having him touching 3rd, and then walking directly down the baseline toward home. Now if coach yells at him to run home, and U2 calls him out, you MUST confer and decide where to put the runner. Likely, I'm putting the runner at third base, 2 outs. (And, as noted above, defense would still be able to appeal his leaving 2B early!). Once U2 called the runner out, you can't call him safe and keep playing, so you essentially have a dead ball scenario, during which you "fix" the situation.

[bluezebra]

In FED, it's not abandonment until the runner reaches dead ball territory. He's not out of the baseline until a play is made on him. The BU goofed.

[David B]

Originally posted by bluezebra
In FED, it's not abandonment until the runner reaches dead ball territory. He's not out of the baseline until a play is made on him. The BU goofed.

give reference please. The note that I found in 8-4-2p seems to differ from your statement above.

I see that in reference to a BR but not for any other runner.

Also I found a case play 8.4.2X which states "when R2 began leaving the field, he should be considred as having abandoned his effort to return or advance and shall be declared out."

This states nothing about dead ball territory.

But I might have missed something so if you could provide me the info I'd be thankful.

thanks
David

[Edited by David B on May 3rd, 2004 at 11:45 PM]

[bluezebra]

Originally posted by David B

give reference please. The note that I found in 8-4-2p seems to differ from your statement above.

I see that in reference to a BR but not for any other runner.

Also I found a case play 8.4.2X which states "when R2 began leaving the field, he should be considred as having abandoned his effort to return or advance and shall be declared out."

This states nothing about dead ball territory.

But I might have missed something so if you could provide me the info I'd be thankful.

thanks
David

[Edited by David B on May 3rd, 2004 at 11:45 PM]

8.4.2.p and the NOTE refers to the BR only, not any other runner.

I don't have the 2004 book, and 2003 only goes to "y", not 8.4.2X. As for "when R2 began leaving the field, he should be considred as having abandoned his effort to return or advance and shall be declared out.", we have a difference of opinion. I don't consider a runner still in the infield to have begun leaving the field.