was this a blown call

[papa bear]

4th down and 6 yds. to go on the opponents 11 yd. line. we run a sweep and get 2 yds. our QB is hit late out of bounds. the ref. calls dead ball foul personal foul. he marks it half the distance to the goal( about the 4 and a half yd. line) and gives the defense the ball. shouldnt we have had 1st and goal at the 4 and a half? ( HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL RULES)

[Edited by papa bear on Oct 26th, 2000 at 11:08 AM]

[Schmidt MJ]

Originally posted by papa bear
4th down and 6 yds. to go on the opponents 11 yd. line. we run a sweep and get 2 yds. our QB is hit late out of bounds. the ref. calls dead ball foul personal foul. he marks it half the distance to the goal( about the 4 and a half yd. line) and gives the defense the ball. shouldnt we have had 1st and goal at the 4 and a half? ( HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL RULES)

[Edited by papa bear on Oct 26th, 2000 at 11:08 AM]

Papa Bear,

I'm afraid the officials got this one right. If they ruled he was hit after the play was over, then it is a deadball foul. There is a rule that says in order to get a 1st down you get the yardage gained on the play plus any yards for a live ball foul plus any yards for a deadball foul only on 1st,2nd, or 3rd down. If it is 4th down, you must gain enough yards during the down plus the yards for any live ball fouls, but not including any deadball fouls. In effect, you can say that as soon as the runner is down after 4th down, with no liveball penalties, he must be past the line to gain or it is the other teams' ball as soon as the play is dead. Any penalties after the ball is dead will back the other team up but they will still have possession.

[Zeke5]

I concur with Schmidt. This was a dead ball foul after which
the ball, by rule, had already been turned over on downs.

Way to go refs!

[bluezebra]

Before the penalty was walked off, the chains should be set. In this case, at B's 9. After the penalty is assessed, it's 1st and 14 1/2.

Bob

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by bluezebra
Before the penalty was walked off, the chains should be set. In this case, at B's 9. After the penalty is assessed, it's 1st and 14 1/2.

Bob

Not true. This rule was changed three years ago. When a dead ball foul occurs after a series of downs ends, the chains are not set until after the penalty is marked off unless the DB fall occurs after the ready whistle.

To the original poster, think of it this way. When your QB ran out of bouns, short of the first down, your possession ended. The ball now belongs to the other team. Whether a late hit occurred immediately after the QB went OOB or a unsportsmanlike conduct flag is thrown 30 seconds later when an opponent curses at your QB, your team's series of downs has already ended.

[bluezebra]

Thanks for the clarification. I haven'tofficiated since '91 and don't have the new book. Frankly, I like the old rule better. It made more sense.
Bob

[Thom Coste]

Originally posted by bluezebra
Thanks for the clarification. I haven'tofficiated since '91 and don't have the new book. Frankly, I like the old rule better. It made more sense.
Bob

Actually, to most of us the NEW rule makes more sense. Under the old code, many new series' started with the line-to-gain more than ten yards downfield, often 1st-and-25. This created an unfair disadvantage to the offense coming onto the field. With the new rule, ALL new series' start at 1st-and-ten (or less, i.e. 1st-and-goal). The offending team is still penalized for the infraction by moving the succeeding spot back, but the line-to-gain is consistently set at ten yards. This provides the team a fair shot at making a first down.

Dead ball fouls that occur after the ready-for-play are still enforced after the chains are set, and will affect the distance to the line-to-gain.

Thom

[papa bear]

although i sort of agree with the rule. i dont agree that the offense has an unfair advantage, after all it was their defense who created the situation. it absolutely should be 1st and 25. too many late blatant hits on fourth down and i can see why. why not? take out their star back or backs, you get the ball and it's first and ten. 1st and 25 is a big deal, 1st and ten means nothing.with this rule it seems that the defense gets a license to intentionally try and hurt certain offensive players on 4th downs.

[Theisey]

"With this rule it seems that the defense gets a license to intentionally try and hurt certain offensive players on 4th downs."

This is an over-statement. The defense has no clue what so ever that they can clobber the runner and their offense will still have 1'st and 10.

Any intentional UC act, as deemed by the official will result in an ejection and each and every player better know that.
Yes, the rule change was significant, but the NFHS recongnized this was the proper action to take.

[papa bear]

The Defense Does Now. who let the dogs out!!!???